hi Folks,

I have taken over landing training ... a complete fail ... shiit when I am too long I don't dare to pull the stick in fear of loosing my airspeed ... so I am doing a bit of slalom but it is not enough not to land in the middle of the runway...
what are you doing when you are too long ?



https://youtu.be/wCfhfjoJyvY

I wouldn't be complaining too much about that landing? That is an airplane type landing like they do in the euro tubs...

A spot landing, you use a different (or I do) type of landing... I call it the 'stop and plop' landing... far, FAR steeper then flare at the bottom.

This is that video of when I had the engine failure and didn't want to go over the fence at the end of the strip. I was actually hanging forward in my seat belts looking at the ground. It was a direct drive EA81 turbo...I had just fitted a replacement motor and mustn't have tightened the clamp on the rubber boost hose at the turbo... it popped off.

Obviously, when it went quiet, I didn't jam the stick forward... I let it slow at the same attitude, then leveled out as the vertical descent began, then let the stick more and more forward until time to flare...it shows how steep you can descend in a gyro

Here is another video when I was testing a gyro we built for Sam (Titanium test pilot) when I was teaching him to fly.

Check out my youtube channel... like/subscribe and all that haha https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCpapIg ... 0B1GobcqVQ

Hi Muz,
thanks a lot man for this reply and the real life video you are giving us
if I understand , you begin with a vertical auto-rotation and then you dive steep and lift the nose at a sort of 4 m from the ground
is it a reflex your developed ( pulling the stick at the right moment) or did you practised it a lot before mastering it ?
I have the feeling that it is a little bit like a skier braking at the last moment at the chair lift queue end , I am right ?
good to have experienced pilots to help on our forum ...
I should fly more and build less...
hahaha

Same thing happened to me but I haven't descended as steep as you did

Yes, Muz I too am interested in your stop and plop landing techniques.
When practicing, what height do you begin the transition from vertical decent to nose down attitude? What height do begin the flare?
Is it a height or rotor speed determining these factors.
I have never had the balls to pull off Birdys 360 landing at his hanger, but this seems like a liner method of doing the same.

If you come in on a long final (like a Cessna or tub) with a slow, flat downward powered approach... then initially flare just before you want to touch down, a gyro will want to climb rater than flare so you end up with that type of landing you see in the video where I was testing Sam's gyro (that was the first time I had flown a lightweight Rotax machine rather than my heavy Subaru)

What I call a 'stop and plop' is when you descend towards the place you want to land very steeply and flare as late as you dare as you get to the landing point. I say as late as you dare because, it is so easy to flare too early, then you need to let the nose down again and probably add power because you use up all of the rotors energy too early. This is the type of landing I mainly used even if I had a 2 mile runway... and then I would use the grass beside it if I was allowed. With the steep approach, you generate alot of energy in the rotor, so the plan is to flare at such a height above touch down that you use up all of the energy just as the wheels touch, so you don't bounce off again.

Giro, that engine out landing was only that steep because where I was flying at Lake George, New South Wales, Australia (google maps) ... it was a lake that is only full every 10 years or so... so we used to fly at the North Western end which was usually dry... the gubmint leased the land to sheep farmers and they put fences in. I had the key to the gate of the part I was flying from, but if I went over the fence and landed, I would have had to driven back onto the highway, turn south, do a U turn when possible, then driven north past where we flew, then do a U turn and come down the highway and slowly look for the gate to the area where my machine would have been parked... and try and get into that gate. So, I chose to do that steep (much more steep than I had ever done before) so I remained on my side of the fence. As it was, I only had to put the rubber boost hose back on at the manifold side of the turbo and tighten up the clamp. We found the air cleaner too... so I just continued flying that day.

When saying that I levelled out once the motor stopped, then lowered the nose more and more, is because, as you know, one never pushes the stick forward suddenly in a gyro, so as not to flip it forward... I didn't wan't anyone reading this to think that the engine quit and I just jammed the stick forward.

Benry, you probably can't do stop and plops at an international airport... but if you are at a landing place where you can practice, this is my method which you could try if you like. Say you were approaching and descending as a normal powered approach and you get to say 100'... simply reduce throttle to idle, lower the nose to keep adequate airspeed... stick forward to increase or back to decrease speed... be looking over your ankles at the point where you would go splat if you forgot to flare (haha) (the bit of ground that isn't moving in your view)... keep this glide and speed until you are getting close to flare height, then, depending on how much space you have to land in, you can either lower the nose further just before the flare, then flare quite hard just before touchdown... the extra 'dip' just before the flare increases the rotor speed so when you flare, you are less likely to run out of rotor 3' off the ground... Or, if you have plenty of room, just continue the same approach all the way down to flare height, but don't flare as aggressively... or you will still have too much rotor speed and will have to float along until you can touch down.

Yes, you need to take into account the surface of the landing area, wind direction/speed/gusts... altitude/density... other traffic... all of the usual stuff. Also, practice before trying to just go out and do it. I chose to do 95% of my landings without power... from seeing other peoples mishaps and them saying "the motor quit at just the wrong time!" , I decided to leave the motor out of the equasion... my gyros were mostly 'hand propped' to start... so, if it stopped on approach, there was no starting it again.

Sorry for the long novel

Where I first learned that type of landing could be done, was when I was learning to fly a Cessna. Just before my first solo, my instructor and I returned from a bit of a fly around in the 150 aerobat and as we came back towards the airstrip, he mumbled something into the radio which I couldn't make out (he was telling the tower 'the plan') so at about 2 miles from the strip at 3000' he pulled the throttle (as instructors do) and said that we were going to land on the runway with no further use of the motor... I did fairly good, stretched the downwind, then turned base (but really wide) then did a sharp turn onto final, but was too high, but too low to go around... he looked at me and asked what I was going to do?

Anyway, he just said "My plane" and reached down and gave it full flaps, pushed the nose over (about 200' over the beginning of the runway and suddenly we are looking at the piano keys in the middle of the windscreen! (when the piano keys used to be near the ends of the runway, not at 1/3rd) He said "what's the airspeed?" which was still about 60kts... then began to flare slightly... followed by a more abrupt flare and we touched down about mid way down the strip.

Using the drag of flaps like barn doors on the back of the 150... you could point it at the ground and not go too fast... a gyro is the same... you have this enormous amount of drag at your disposal... if you learn how to use it.

I wouldn't be doing absolute stop and plops in a heavy 2 seat, fully loaded machine unless absolutely necessary (urgent) tho, just as a disclaimer... especially the tubs, you have to 'do it by their book' and I wouldn't recommend doing a steep, almost vertical dive like in my engine out, unless you have no choice... but I believe doing mostly (or practicing) engine out landings with the steepish approach and flare at the bottom, makes it alot easier if you ever do lose you engine and MUST do a real engine out landing.

I understand and thank you Muz,
Dave B and me once tried to come up with an aireal duet for an upcoming flyin we thought would be sweet. we called it the double helix. both of us in a steep spiral decent corkscrewing around each other. it was going to be sweet.

At the time we used to call this a death roll or spin before some pansy in the gyro world decided death roll sounded to manly and named them twist and shouts.

Anyways while doing these I noticed that the blades speed up tremendously and when you pull up at the bottom you would helicopter up for a bit till they slowed down again.

one time and one time only I decided to try a death roll all the way to the deck, roll out helicopter up and land to see if it was an effective strategy for pinpoint landings on say a tennis court. I pulled it off, but when I was done I told Dave "ain't never gonna try that shit again!"

So I see that you are essentially doing the same thing with your stop and plop but keeping your nose forward the whole time. I don't know, but I doubt it spins up the rotors as fast as a spiral.

I shall continue to try and learn the best methods because I fly over a whole lot of jungle.

Thanks

https://youtu.be/EmFgN1D2D10

Watch from 6:15 to the end....

Damn.....

Muz,

thank you for all those precious explanations everything gets clearer in my mind ..

I have displayed my landing and asked because my personal search for accurate spot landings was in a cul de sac, but now all becomes clearer in my mind..

I always approach and flare engine idle at best glidding air speed plus a margine to anticipate the wind gradient
without wind ( which is rare in my place) I go to a tought time landing where I want and it is really not a good thing because in the mountains fields are small ... and in deep valleys wind is really calm ...

I had already noticed that increasing my approach airspeed did not lead me to balooning or to had touch down .. the result of higher flare G load of course ..

Benry,

I think that the self training could be performed by encreasing gradually air speed and hence the descent steepness to get used to flare at the right height ...
this is at least what I am gonna do..

Fuckin hell boys, I really appreciate to be with you on this forum ... no bla bla only kind people speaking of their experience , without any willing to show off

Yeah ,I dont k ow if you were reading that guy I was having the argument with on RWF.
The guys designs gyros and I question his mental state.

Hi Benry
I haven't surfed this forum long ... I am not interested in their discussions to be honest
do you have a link to this disussion ? I can't remember my login so I can't access to the "new messages" function

https://www.rotaryforum.com/threads/ar- ... 331/page-3


Post 47 is where I got involved.
What it came down to is my steadfast belief that being able to control a rotor and hand start it and fly without a rotor tach is a valuable skills set that every pilot should learn before embarking on flying 2 place euro tubs with unsuspecting passengers.

The manufacturer of the gyro in question that had had the accident (as well as a few others recently) insisting that following the POH to the letter and getting rotor rpms to 180, stick back full throttle launch is best and that "feeling" the blades spin up is unteachable.
I feel sorry for anyone who buys this guys rigs....

I would suggest the best way to try the stop and plop to see if you like it... is to fly to a strip that is long... assuming the wind is favorable and fairly well coming right at you along the runway ... (you can turn into the wind at the flare if the wind is a little off)... But come in over the strip at 100' or so and reduce throttle to idle and let nose down to maintain airspeed... keep the nose down until ready to flare... then flare as appropriate as close to the ground as you dare... the machine should touch down on the mains at very low ground speed, if any at all and hold the nose up until the wheels stop, or even roll back a little... When you are on the steep glide approach... you will be looking over your feet at the ground, rather than sitting flat with your feet in the way of your view to the ground... avoid the feeling you need to pull up way early (but maintain your desired airspeed)... otherwise you will end up doing the 'down the steps' landing and have to use power to clean up the landing... Start gently tho... don't go out there and drive it into the ground first time... just get used to lowering the throttle up high (100' or so) and gliding steeply but maintaining appropriate airspeed to begin with..... like, don't approach at 90kts vertical to the ground

It sounds really awesome as you land with hardly any ground speed too, the blades do alot of 'wop wop ing'

Once you have practiced it alot and are confident and sort of know where you will touch down if you pull power... you can even get a bag of flour and make/draw a 'box' to land in ... eventually you could essentially land on a heli pad

Thx Muz. I will consider this and try to find somewhere I could practice it.

If you were to pull engine at 100 feet, nose down to pick up speed at about what height would you start your flare? 15 feet agl, 20?

Thx Muz. I will consider this and try to find somewhere I could practice it.

If you were to pull engine at 100 feet, nose down to pick up speed at about what height would you start your flare? 15 feet agl, 20?

That is what you need to work out... I can't say. But you will find that it is lower than you think... and when you initiate the flare too early, you have to lower the nose again... add power etc

When you watch a bird landing a field, they glide in, then at the last moment, pull up and land on their feet with maybe a step... as they touch down, they do a few more flaps of the wings...


Starting ay flaring at 15' or so will be a good start... then try a bit lower and a bit lower... you will work your way down to the right height for your machine weight, rotor size an lift... relative wind etc... it is probably 5' or so... but you have to practice to work out what works for you... the last thing you want to do is glide in and flare at minus 2'

Muz, folks,

don't take what I am gonna say as exact please, just assumptions, sorry my english is bad and I will be boring to read, but maybe of some interest

when your engine stopped you were nosing up fairly firmly and then it stopped you, you lost your air speed, waited your gyro to get flat without moveing the stick and then pushed your stick ahead in order to accelerate more then if you had simply tired get back in a glidding situation

in fact you found yourself in a gravitationnal acceleration

it made it possible for you to accumulated energy that your rotor used when you flared, increasing drastically both the g load and rotor angle of attack

this energy was then used to stop your sort of free fall ..

this is a feeling I have because of two things :

-1/ I have been trained to fly at 3000 feet, then push the stick, accelerate to 180 km/h , then pull the stick, fulle throttle and steep ascent, engine idle at the top of the ascent, wait till the gyro get back on it's flat attitude without moving the stick ahead, then push the stick to littelrally free fall dive, see that the rotor rpm don't build up and stay around 280 rpm (goshhhh) and then around 800 ft pull the stick gently apply full throttle and go back in a level cruise speed flight before climping gently again up to 1500 ft

this is not something ususally taught, and it must be done in dual with a really expert .. but it really shows that a gyro is really not dangerous provided one never pull or push violently the stick at the top of the ascent and of course fully throttles back at this moment

after seeing your video I am sure you were in this kind of situation ...

- 2/ I have experienced a similar engine failure then yours .. but the fence was far ahead and I did not have to dive as steep as you did, but my gyro nose was really pointing to the ground .. I remember having watch my airspeed indicator and I only managed to reach 85 km/h before I could flare, but I fairly felt the acceleration in my stomaque .


whay am I saying all of this ?

simply because I think that your type of emergency landing was more then an engine idle, high airspeed, steep descent landing

it is simply a feeling ...

I confess I have never been trained to hand start a rotor, gently building up rpm pushing gently the throttle, felling the brake effect and all of this without flapping the blades

I am sure it make folks realize a rotor is "alive" and must not be forced etc

nevertheless I can pre-spinn without a rotor tach until you can't see the blades and I am able to gently accelerate not to flap the blade, and it has been usefull because my rotor tach battery is a pain in the neck to order and change and that I often had to fly with no tach,

in flight execpt when my teacher was showing me the rotor slowing at the top of an elliptic trajectory, I have never paid attention to my tach at all, it is useless

but I understand what you meant in this discussion, in fact the new trend in gyroplane world is to take , old rich former FW pilots , and transition them rapidly so that they quickly buy a euro tub or an AR1.

their rapid training does not focus on what a gyro really is ... and don't ask them to understand what a rotor is

this trend is what pushed me out of this forum where most of the people are stock gyro buyers, and not gyroplane fans ... it is like porsh forum, they are more interested in the color of their gyroplane then about gyroplanes ..

they can go to hell ! plus this forum is full of leftists and globalists

it sounds like you truly understand the relationship I was trying s hard to vocalize to him. It is to me imperative that a student needs to understand the feel of the rotor coming alive and not regurgitate numbers on a screen.

As for Muzzies stop and plop, I am really trying to consider the best way to train this maneuver.

Did either of you watch Birdy's circle the hanger landing on the video I posted? fucking hell on wheels, I will probably NEVER be that good!

One other thing to keep in mind, if you are willing to destroy your aircraft as long as you walk away, there is a much larger emergency envelope to be had!

Like roman soldiers believing they were already dead before the battle, had nothing to lose.....

I have pics of my wreck and some others I never show them to anyone, but the damage between a fatal wreck and the one I walked away from are remarkably similar in damage.....spookily so. I guess the big guy upstairs didn't want me :/