I remember too as it was my post of a flight of three up the Snake River while at an Air Show in Twin Falls with Kent Godard, Cammie Patch, Micheal Burton and I taking the pictures from the right seat with Micheal in Puff the red Cavalon. I remember them asking Cammie and her unreal response and I uncharacteristically said nothing!
But we did not take any video's on that trip.

When I posted about 20 or 30 pictures some of those showed her below the canyon rim or at it way out in the middle of the canyon. There was no way she could have made it back to the rim and there was often rocks on the rim with on where to land even if she made it back with (air speed).

We all trusted our Rotax's engines on that day Micheal did the best almost always higher. But we were also the photo chase gyro!

Kent was often on the other side of the rim and high enough to land however there were times when if the engine went quit we would have gone for a swim in strong current.

You hit the nail on the head.... whenever it has gone suddenly quiet for me, I just look down then go there..... there is no stretching the glide in a gyro.... some people try to set up a nice calm glide and look around for where they can go.... I would rather know in advance because I constantly look what is below and avoid tiger country (or fly high to give additional choices in a silent moment) but I have always found that rather than slowly gliding, aiming at the point you decide on and charging down with determination for that spot and setting up for that spot with alot of rotor energy when one gets there. I find this better than trying to prolong a slower, shallower glide and having little energy in the rotors for the final touchdown.

IMO, the only time one would want less energy in the rotors is if there is no place to land without trees or obstacles and you might choose to flare high over whatever and just chance coming down on whatever it is with little energy in the disk.

I have never even scratched a gyro, so I have never had to try a vertical, level float down to the ground, but I have lost friends to gyro accidents and seen enough results of accidents to have the opinion that you must have the heavy bits like the motor hit the ground before the pilot at all costs.... if going in nose first or upside down, the motor aint going to stop until it hits terra firma.... anything between the motor and the ground aint gonna survive....

I don't see much new on that machine? The motorcycle type headlights in the fairing.... nice color.... but still the same looking frame, same looking windscreen... and I don't believe a plexi/lexan whatever screen that isn't held by a frame or some sort of support can be counted on not to fold back when doing 185kph? No way. My original EA81 turbo gyro (the one in my engine out video) was good for 96 kts (going by my pitot style ASI with vent in the right place and also because I flew in a conga line with a 172 and a Cherokee 6 for about 15 miles.... they couldn't believe what they were seeing) as well as the fact that nobody in any other gyro could even near keep up with me when going anywhere.

That was open with no screen, just a motorcycle full face helmet.... and me shrugging my shoulders so the helmet locked onto my shoulders.... any thought of looking from side to side or to look up would have simply removed my head. I tried using a helicopter helmet with the clear and dark visor, but that simply emptied my nose with syphoning action..... and any time I stopped purposely jamming my lips together, I would accidently do a 'fish face' from the wind.... so Sam bought that helmet from me, because his 582 gyro was flat out at 55 kts.... So, a gyro with a screen like that, unsupported, would be at great risk folding back onto the pilot... I sure wouldn't risk it and I sure wouldn't be promoting it and telling people it is ok to do....

So, apart from the folding mast on the Auto Gyro.... it just looks like a 2016 model tarted up a bit? Looks nice, but just another clone?


I would still choose a Titanium if I could afford or want a clone..... only because the Titanium is Far Superior.... as we all know

I still want to know why they all use 304 stainless instead of 4130 ChroMo....??

The AR-1 is an awesome machine, top notch, but The Tangos are getting much better with each one they build.
Too bad I don't have that kind of money at my disposal.....

It would be nice to actually be able to go someplace, an open machine gets too fatiguing at high speeds for long periods.

few more pics from sun n fun .... lot of mustangs

I had a really good look at the new MTO yesterday, and yes of course still a clone, and of course still an MTO, but I think some really great changes and additions that are hard to knock. Before I describe them, yes same SS frame etc, but all Autogyro critics should take a gander in the difference in the quality of the welds etc between the Autogyro and the AR-1, pretty striking difference, at least aesthetically, and immediately obvious, even to a non-welder like me.
Lots of great ergonomic changes to the MTO, adjustable pedals and seats adjustable up and down, with lumbar support and heating options. Throttle panel moves with seats. Larger wider windscreens, with rear screen flaring outwards to enhance protection. 25 gallon more integrated furl tank. Foldable mast and optional tow bar - really ugly on an otherwise very pretty machine. Lights and new main landing gear are very similar to Cavalon. Full rear panel with ability to shut out rear mag switches and easily removable stick. Instructors have to love this setup. Roll and pitch trim now standard.
Options for more storage on inside of body on the sides.
Pre rotator an upgrade version of Calidus/Cavalon with ability to perorate to 320 rpm.
Tail is completely new, similar but not identical to Calidus, the vertical stab is not as high as the old one, but rudder surface area is larger. Side tail feathers are thicker with a wider airfoil shape. This is supposedly significant according to autogyro in terms of control and stability. Tail wheel now standard - thank you. The head is completely new, shorter coning towers and different bearings etc.
Of course new visible engine and mast covers.
The model shown at the show, is not even completely assembled yet, as only arrived a couple of days ago. Paint scheme though still pretty was screwed up as they matched the paint to 'Old Glory' literally so the red was matched to the real old glory which is faded - so is pink. Ha, Ha.
So overall I think a really nice evolutionary upgrade of the already awesome (in my book) MTO. Improved creature comforts, ergonomics, range, trim controls etc, make it a significant upgrade as a touring machine. As for claimed improvements in flight control etc - this has yet to be seen, but there are reasons to believe this may be more than hot air - with the new tower and different tail.
Autogyro are really doing an amazing job in the market place, they are now listening to their customers - they have a new involved US CEO who is based in Lakeland. I like it, I would get one in a heartbeat.

Yeah I talked to him at the show. He said they didn't make Bensen Days because the container was late arriving. In my humble opinion you don't schedule shipping that last minute if you really want to make an event. So to me this was just an excuse. They could have shown up with the rest of the arsenal 2 cavalones the naked and the calidus they had on display at SNF!!!!
They are now reduced in workforce from 90 people working in the factory to a mere 20.
That tells you something huh?
The competition has forced them to fix the problems the customers had to bear before.
When it comes to welding quality NOBODY but NOBODY beats the Titanium quality.
That weld is superior to anything out there. The OZ guys are fucking welding gods!!!! Period.
They can probably weld a glass of water to a 2x4 slab......
The looks of the weld isn't everything. Integrity is more important but usually the two go together.
I have seen some pretty "questionable" looking welds but they held like a son of a gun despite their looks.
So all in all. Yeah the new MTO is nicely done and the old issues seem to be addressed.
Let's hear the reports once they start to fly here ..... from others than Steve_UK and the usual suspects.
Let the fat lady sing. ELA has produced a very nice alternative to the Autogyro line.
If I had that kind of money I would not even look at any of the Autogyro products.
I'd go for the ELA in a heartbeat. But that's just my taste. We are all different.
Still not impressed with the Xenon or Tercel or whatever the hell they are now....

Competition is all good; bottom line, Autogyro make a great product, and they are by quite a ways still the leading producers in the gyro world - for many reasons, not just the product, marketing and corporate structure obviously are key. There's many reasons why businesses succeed or fail, and there's always room for good competition. and preference is no different to preferring Ford vs Chevy in concept. Each person chooses their vehicle or aircraft based on the various factors important to them. Autogyro USA has really upped their game in terms of support, builder assist, training etc, etc. I think their new CEO has made a huge difference. I don't believe the original CEO was as involved as he needed to be, so from what I understand the Germans made the changes. I was not comparing the Autogyro to Titanium, so that is not the point I was making. My point was that Autogyro still makes a very slick overall high quality product with excellent aesthetics and finish. I thought the appearance of the 2 AR-1 models I saw in Sebring was a little sloppy in terms of the appearance of the welds. Maybe of no importance functionally, but again, if you are trying to sell something, these things make a difference when given choices. Maybe just more lipstick, but most people look at the babe with makeup. Have you ever seen the pictures of those movie stars without makeup. You also know Gabor some of the delimitation issues etc that they had in the past. Hopefully no longer. Clearly with the new MTO, Autogyro have been listening to their customers. Actually in the US at the moment their big thing that is really selling is the Cavalon - it appeals to a different type of clientele. Autogyro makes no bones about the fact that they are not going after the traditional gyro market. I think they should be at Bensen Days, but I think they realize that they get mostly shit from the traditional gyro folk at BD and of course all the stuff on the forums and they don't care and want to go where they think their best market is - clearly Sun n Fun. They are going after the higher paying market with models like the Cavalon. The new MTO is obviously pulling a lot of the little fine touches from the Calidus and Cavalon. I'm sure price will go up a little as well. They are also pulling people who want rotorcraft but can't afford traditional helicopters. I had a long talk with their main agent in West Palm Beach who is a helicopter company, but they are finding the gyros are actually a better business model in many ways for them.

I wasn't by any means talking down the Autogyro products.
I like the fact that they dared to challenge the market.
The beginning stage is always hard and finding the right dealers is the key.
It does take personal involvement. Which they did not have for a good while.
Just like good music they had to earn name in Europe before coming to the States.
It's just how things operate. Personal preferences will obviously make or break a product.
It is no longer up to the salesman. The information is free flowing.
The products do sell themselves with a tiny help from the dealer as they try to highlight the benefits of their product.
I want to see the specs being proven on the new MTO as we all have experienced so many times the claims to be less than honest through and through.
I think nowadays we all kind of taking everything with a grain of salt.
No one wants to be the purchaser the series of "A" any longer.
For 60-70 grand they want to purchase the "F-G" series.....
Just my opinion.... and it's worth as much as I charge for them

I think the specs will be better but not radical - just a more refined flyer - a better more comfortable touring machine I think will be the main thing, significantly more range is obvious. How important things like the 320 rpm pre rotator etc will be I don't know

By the way speaking of welding..... all ya'll popular Eurotub owners check your "nice" weldings!!!

I wouldn't like a gyro with a welded frame.... I am lead to believe that the TBO on most welded clones is 1500 hours? Then the frame has to be replaced? As I have said, I don't like the idea of welded frames covered with fairings so you cant easily inspect the welds....

Most of the 'good improvements' wouldn't work here in Australia. We are allowed a max AUW of 600kg.... period. And they do ramp checks including weighing by CASA (our FAA) at random airports. So, assuming the weight of a tub is 360kg with double instruments, radios, first aid kit, an emergency tool kit/spare tube etc etc.... then the average Australian is about 100kg (220#) ...... so, me and Nabs couldn't fly one here in Aus because the machine would be at MAUW with zero gas. So having a gas tank with an extra quantity doesn't help at all. That is why most tubs I have seen here in Aus are the pilot in the front and spare gas cans in the back seat. If I see a tub with 2 big Aussies in it, I know it is over the limit.... it has a useable range of one circuit.... no matter what SIZE tank is in it.

Having a removable back stick doesn't help us here, there are no 'JOY FLIGHTS' only TIF's (trial introduction flights) so obviously the sticks both have to be there to teach the person.

But ultimately, it is the weight that is the restriction here... Because if you get pulled up for a ramp check at an airport, they will stop you where you park and slip the scales under the wheels before either you or your passenger get out of the machine..... if you have your tent, safety equipment, fire extinguisher, a tomahawk to bang in the tent pegs and chop fire wood, your binoculars, DSLR camera and the gyro cover on board, then the pilot is 110kg and the passenger 100kg (and you are both wearing heavy jackets in winter) .... it is more than likely that the machine will be 750kg (150kg over) so you are screwed. I believe flying over MTOW is a $AU5K fine.

We all know that any of the clones should be safe enough carrying 900+ KG, but our CASA are determined to not increase the 600kg weight because they know that the ultralight FW crowd are trying to get it increased to 750kg.... but this would let them register a Cessna 150/152 with doors removed as an ultralight ..... so they wont budge on the weight. I believe a 150 with no doors and one seat .... with only the bare instrument panel and a tiny motorcycle battery (just for the weigh in) comes in at 700kg.

They don't want people owning 150's and registering them as an ultralight (fix it yourself, run mogas, no 100 hour inspection etc)

So, they cant allow gyros to increase MTOW because then the FW ultralight people will want the same.... and if they let the spam can ultralights have more weigh, gyros will want the same... so, they wont up the weight.

So, a 152 is in the same situation as the clone gyro (over here) ... a 152 empty weighs 490kg.... add a 110 kg pilot.... you are at MTOW for ultralight or gyro with no gas yet.... that is how they (CASA) want it. Any euro clone gyro here in Australia with 2 grain fed Aussies in it will have the machine over the MTOW without gas... they know the published weight of all of the clones... but CASA has scales that they use... so no matter what the machine is supposed to weigh... and the passenger told the pilot he was only 95kg (or the pilot uses the 77kg standard adult weight even tho he knows he himself weighs 120kg....) When the CASA inspector puts the machine on the scales and it is showing 712kg and you just flew in from 2 hours away and you only have 1/4 of a tank of fuel.... he can work out you took off with 770kg AUW and you are $5K poorer

If you can carry unlimited weight over there, those 'upgrades' might be an improvement

What COULD be lurking under those pretty covers?



http://www.calculatoredge.com/civil%20e ... r/beam.htm

I do have to agree 100% on the welded frames. I remember Vance's Predator going through the same problem.
He has all kinds of cracks on his machine.
There were the Bandits with similar problems.
Xenons were notorious of mast cracking.
I am sure there are a bunch of success stories out there too.
Modified steal is the way to go for gyros because the high intensity vibration needs to be absorbed.
It does NOT disappear but rather ends up in the connections and shake them apart eventually.
There is no perfect metal for this application so to speak.
Because in one aspect it has to to be flexible to withstand the shaking but tough to resist the cracking.
The helicopter preflight manual is very specific about the points of interest and it has to do with the junctions of the frame!!!!
Anyways. I am with you. Much heavier bolts and plates are not cracking.....
YEAH they are but at a 1000 ft above the ground extra 1 lbs or 2 doesn't matter when the mofo starts falling apart in mid air......

I still the MTO .... I still the MTO......



Oh and I added more pictures to the first post on page one.

I believe those pics are of cracks on early MTO3's, that were circulating forever. Correct?

Yes, I have had the pics since 2014.

My point is, I would be less worried about welded frames if you can see the welds (and if people actually are interested to look for problems)

Once a welded structure is covered by pretty plastic, no one knows what is happening out of sight.

The biggest issue with welding, is, unless once the thing is welded the whole ting is heat treated as a unit, there will be the parent materials which are treated and strong/flexible.... then there is the weld which, if done properly, is strong.... but between the weld and the parent material (on each side of the weld) any heat treatment is nullified by the welding.... it is the reason why ChroMo once welded, the whole welded area has to be re-heated and let cool.....

I simply prefer bolts and cheek plates.... heavy, and they too can crack.... which is why I am not keen on pretty covers

Hey Lofty.... when do you start testing the air cam?

gussets, there should be gussets where the welds are.

Hope to fire up the engines by the end of this week, or next. Have to get the floats and control surfaces to the paint shop in the next week or two.
Maybe two months till she flies.

Hey my brother from another mother , what did. Miss Sarah post about her ride in my AR1 on Facebook ?