I have made this video on gyro landings. I kept having students drift to the right on landing and i hope this will help show whats going on.

Very well done!
Thank you.

Sorry, but those landings are perfect.... for a Cessna... but way too fast for a gyro...

I can see now, how come so many euro tubs fall over landing at that speed... Gyros are not good ground machines.

My landings are steeper and timed to be pointing in the correct direction as the wheels touch with little or no roll... To me having power on landing allows me to land slower...

Oh well, I guess it keeps the new sales department aand spares going if people get taught to crash them

All just my opinion

You are my HERO!

My favorite videos of all time are LANDING videos. If I never see another fly-by, it will be too soon.

I m not knocking you Desmon... you are just teaching what the manuals tell you to teach, so please dont take my comment as anything against you.

Here in there have been more than 20 accidents/roll overs with tubs of all breeds that the pilot has rolled on landing... most have claimed to have been hit by a 'freak gust of wind' which tipped them over... but I have seen many tubs land at 30+ mph, complete with chirping tires and a long roll before slowing down enough to turn off the runway, and I have seen them landed properly as well, a plop on with the stick well back.... hardly a turn of the wheel and even a little backwards roll as the rotors shed thier lift... then taxy on....

As I have said before, gyros are great flying machines, but lousy ground machines at speed or crossing sloping ground/uneven ground.... where the CofG is low in flight, when on the ground it is extremely high (easy to tip over) and having the gyroscopic forces of the prop and especially the rotors when they are at flying speed or slightly below, moving the stick to the right can actually lift the right mainwheel... so if you are exciting the runway to a taxi way, say to the right, with a propeller with the downgoing blade going down on the right and you add power, and you move the stick to the right.... especially if you are taxying fast to clear the runway and the rotors are still going fast.... everything is wanting to tip the machine to the left.... which they often do do. Remember the 3 wheel dirt bikes before everyone went 4 wheel (quads).... the 3 wheelers would often tip.... well, a gyro has the same 3 wheels and an awful lot of weight very high up.... making them almost a 'tip-o-matic'

I believe if people did the usual steep approach, flare at the bottom so the wheels touch just as the rotors give thier last lift... then stop and feed in back stick untill the rotors lose thier lifting ability (unless you are doing a touch and go) then taxy and or turn off the runway at about walking pace... even a 'freak gust of wind' cant push you over then (unless it is a 100mph crosswind) Spam cans can taxy fast and turn, because they dont have alot of weight towering high above.... and they dont have the gyroscopic rotor disk trying to lift wheels....

I hope you dont just get shitty and ignore this thread.... I would like to see some discussion... If I am wrong, tell me.... I just think it is important for others looking at the thread to think about if this really is a 'freak gust of wind' or something they may have unintentionally caused

This is a topic that needs discussing imo

Muz- I always landed like you described. I never could understand why so many landed gyros way faster than necessary....My RAF and my SparrowHawk both could land almost as slow as my Bensen.

Muzz,
I do agree that these particular landings are faster than they should be, though I would point out in this particular video the goal seems to have been more to demonstrate good alignment on landing, and avoiding drift on touchdown which is probably the major factor leading to tip overs particularly if one has any forward speed after touchdown. I did learn to touchdown a lot slower from Des, and Des my suggestion would be to edit this to make it clear that the student now has accomplished one component of a correct landing. What I see as still lacking, more than the steepness of the approach, is a late mistiming of the flare that essentially brakes the forward speed of the gyro. This is the case irrespective of the steepness of the approach, and in fact would be a bigger problem if the approach was more steep. A steeper approach with poor timing of the flare could be more problematic due to the faster vertical descent. On these landings, the pulling back of the stick to essentially brake the gyro occurs after touchdown, rather than just before and during touchdown, in effect resulting in little or no ground roll. This of course comes with practice, learning to anticipate the correct time to do this. This is also the time where most of us sometimes get it a little wrong depending on wind conditions and depending on our decision to hold in a little throttle or not. So I do agree with Muzz, but also think the video shows good control of any drift on touchdown, which is the first essential, just in case one still has some groundspeed, but the next component is better timing of the flare so that groundspeed is minimal on touchdown. I think when learning to land, it is a little easier to start learning as Des shows in this video, of course only in good wind conditions, and then practice better timing and control of the flare.
Just from an only 225 hour gyro pilot.

When you have a "real" engine out....you more than likely will not be over a runway. You will have to pick your spot and slow it down as much as possible to minimize ground roll on a surface much rougher and shorter than a 3000 foot runway.

I feel that is why many actual engine outs end up with the gyro damaged. I had 18 actual forced landings in a gyro without so much as a scratch....and I attribute some of that to just pure"luck" but most of it to constantly practicing power off landings with as little ground roll as possible. I am positive had all my 18 forced gyro landings been made at just 10 mph faster on each one....I would have had several torn up machines.

Agree completely with you, but this takes practice, particularly for those transitioning from fixed wing. I just think the point to be made here is there are two very important components to landing a gyro, controlling any sideways drift, and controlling ground speed. For a transitioning FW pilot the first is more intuitive, except that one does not see the same roll/yaw sight picture component of a gyro as in a fixed wing. As the transitioning pilot gets to understand the abilities of a gyro, he learns how it is quite possible to touch down with no ground roll, unlike a fixed wing. On the other hand if that same pilot while learning gets it wrong on the flare and flares too late, he is going to hit the ground much harder with a steeper approach. Another comment I would have for Des, is that the next and final step in learning to land a gyro is becoming better at a spot landing. This is perfect control of both vertical and horizontal movement. This for me was lacking in me when I first flew solo, and I am slowly getting better.

I am sure that Desmon also teaches slower landings and his videos shown are excellent for training someone to initially learning how to land.

But many continue on and land their gyros at 20 mph...wont even mention the 30 mph plus landings I see......then they are in trouble when facing a forced landing off airport. That's why so many get torn up.

Fortunately..with the widespread use of Rotax 912's , 914's...and other new power sources....engine outs are much rarer.

One last point, that I know Desmon makes, is that Desmon very often teaches at airports with towers and lots of landing traffic etc, where making the zero roll landing, 200 yards from the runway turnoff, is also bad form from the perspective of the controller and the other landing aircraft. And the need to be off the runway quite quickly is also important, so we don't make guys go around etc. All of this can be very difficult for a learning pilot. Ultimately the really good gyro pilot will be able to do a spot landing at the turnoff, or fly the runway till the turnoff and do his spot landing. In this scenario the pilot has to be able to land like a gyro pilot, but behave on final and on the runway more like a fixed wing. Even at non-towered busy airports this is important. At Deland, with sometimes 5 or 6 aircraft in the pattern this is essential if I don't want to piss a lot of people off. Similarly very frequently on take-off, I begin my prerotation at the hold short line, before turning onto the runway for takeoff, to shorten my time on the runway on takeoff. Flying a gyro off a grass patch of your own is one thing, flying a gyro and fitting into a FW pattern with other aircraft is another.

All good points Lofty and Stan.... I am glad you guys are taking my comments as they were intended, to help in a positive way, not simply just to cause a stir.

I dont know if it is the same in America, but in Australia, the FW do a FW circuit, the usual rectangular circuit with the 1000' agl downwind leg, then base, then final..... however, the helicopter circuit is different and at only 500' downwind leg.... that is to keep the rotary wing aircraft separated from the spam cans... so essentially, the spam cans can fly how they need to fly and the roundwings can also.

Gyrocopters are not fixed wings.... they are not helicopters either... but they fly more like a helicopter than a spam can... so rather than interfere with spam can pilots who are usually going alot faster than us in gyros and are very unforgiving of anyone getting in thier way.... So why should gyrocopters fly in the spam can circuit? Perhaps it is partly to do with the confusing name the euro tubs have caused the gyrocopter to be called? In Australia, the euro tubs are also referred to as 'gyroplanes' .... evidently because gyrocopters used to crash alot and the new 'perfect' ones didnt want to be associated with gyrocopters that crash... so, they renamed them gyroplanes.

Well, guess what... gyrocopters look nothing like a plane.... they fly very little like a plane, the gyro speed envellope means they can fly much slower and not as fast as GA planes (other than Cessnas/trainers)... gyrocopters dont need airspeed to stay aloft like a plane, not like the FW with the stall speed, but obviously gyros need airspeed for directional control, (but I am sure you know what I mean) gyroCOPTERS are not Planes and shouldnt be flown like them.

I have said it before as well... if a gyrocopter is in the spam can circuit and calls "Gyroplane such and such downwind for 360 full stop" any spam can pilot around will probably look out of the window if he can be bothered... and look for a PLANE which he just heard make the call.... he cant see this supposed plane, so he goes back to just thinking inside the cockpit.... If the call was "gyrocopter" he and the co-pilot would prolly look harder because they will be looking for the flashing reflection of rotors... and it would be KuuuuL to see one of these gyrocopters

I am with Stan 100%... people should treat every landing as an engine failure excercise.... because one day it might.... the mighty Rotax is good, but not 'infallible'.... they can stop. We humans seem to tend to always fall back on the first thing we learn.... if you first learn to do powered landings in a gyro, then you learn how to do a glide landing.... when the motor goes quiet suddenly... you will tend to remember all of the normal powered landings... and have to THINK what to do to do a successful glide landing.... all whilst looking for somewhere to land. If you first learn glide landings and once you have them perfect... then, you learn powered landings... guess what type of landing will be the first one you think of when the prop stops? Yup.... just another usual landing

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The first thing that hooked me on gyrocopters, was.... the lack of 'violence' in the landings and general flight... by that, I mean... when you are at an airport and watch a spam can land.... once the wheels touch the ground, there is the chirp... then the rumble of the wheels over the surface until they slow down enough.... even watching trikes land... they glide in, then the wheels touch and rumble, runble, rumble..... until they turn and taxy back... but FW lands with excessive speed (above or at thier stall speed) then they have to wash off thier excess speed in as short a distance as they have available.

A gyro comes in (gliding) and can perch itself on the ground with hardly a turn of the wheels... no rumbling, no mamoth speed to get rid of (only in the rotors) and how KuuuuL is the sound of the rotors 'wop wopping' as they shed thier lift after a slow precision landing? Not to mention, a landing that on approach might be a 90 degree cross wind... but when you touch down at zero groundspeed, you can turn it into the wind, so there isnt a crosswind at all?

My point in all of this... is gyrocopters are not planes, they dont need to do what planes do.... they CAN land as fast as a plane, (but they shouldn't) In my opinion, new pilots to gyrocopters... especially those coming from GA, who can 'mistakenly' fall for believing these 'gyroPLANES' are just like the 'planes' they already fly.... which, I believe, causes the new gyro pilots to treat gyroPLANES as planes...

Gyrocopters are a beast of thier own.... people need to stop confusing them with planes by referring to them as gyroplanes and learn/be taught the DIFFERENCES
And Vive La Difference!!

You guys crack me up! Most of all generally an MTO lands slightly flatter then a sparrow hawk. In a 10 knot headwind you practically have no ground roll. I also do not let them allow the nose wheel to touch untill they are on a virtual stop. However when you have no tail wheel a little ground roll is ok especially in light or calm wind. I just want them to carry speed down to ground effect. Then bleed it off untill the gyro lands when it wants to. This is much more stable approach then a steep swoop with lack of airspeed control. Remember you are not watching videos of your self so it's hard to compair what's going on with out duplicating conditions. It's also easier to slow down with only one person.

I would say something really smart if ..... but I don't know how to fly nor land these things ..... so I'll just read on.

Desmon- You make my point. Most landings I have seen into a 10 mph wind still see 15 mph ...at least..groundspeed. They are not slowing these things down. When these people have an actual engine out...and in less than desirable terrain...many will challenged to keep from "cracking up" their own machine.

I have seen too many forced landings that cracked up because they landed way too fast.

Maybe things have changed since I haven't been to Mentone or Bensen Days for 2 years...but I remember seeing airplane like landings being performed regularly.

My SparrowHawk and RAF would land very slow with a passenger because I trained myself to do such landings. I never had a forced landing with a passenger, but I feel my chances were better by practicing slow landings.

I know that the swoop, stop and plop gyro landing looks weird to spam can pilots who only know thier own machines needs, that is why I like to keep away from thier 'zone' if at all possible. On a day with 15kt wind it would be good to do a normal heli approach and land on the helipad that would stun a few people. Like I said, a stop and plop looks all wrong to a spam can pilot... but to me, it is usual to be a couple of hundred feet before and above your landing spot, idle, lower the nose and swoop in for a flare and plop.... and I had complete control over airspeed. Sure it wasnt always perfect and sometimes had to do the power on trick if I flared too high (usually happened when there were friends/cameras around)

I am also an advocate of keeping 3 wheels on the ground on a takeoff run, then 3 wheels off... The only time I ever did your 'balancing on the mains' was showing off like a wheelie on a bike... but my usual takeoff on a decent strip is on 3 wheels til they all come off together. A gyro is such a terrible ground machine, I like either the stability of 3 wheels on... or the airborne stability of all of them off the ground. The worst position a gyro can be in is on the ground at high speed in the transition from ground to flying... when the nose is off.... the mains are dragging/skipping and when moving the joystick to either side can make one side main wheel or the other bite.

FW has to get to high speed for takeoff, then they MUST lift the nose wheel (or lower the tail on a tail dragger) to change the angle of attack of the main wing.... we dont have to lift the nosewheel to show the airflow the bottom of the rotors, we can tilt the rotor disk back with the stick, while the nose wheel is on the ground. On terribly rough strips, rather than bounce along and have the possibility of a main wheel brushing something it shouldnt and getting some unwanted grip... for me, I would horse off as soon as the rotors were ready, get a few feet off then lower the nose and finish the 'takeoff run' without the possible interferrence of tufts of grass and weeds.... gaining airspeed but not altitude, until everything is going as planned and the machine will start to gain altitude with the keel level, or even nose down a bit. That is where I find the old school 'rotor handling/knowledge/practice' is so handy to know... which is something that I find is missing badly today. I have seen some manuals... the ones that say "prerotate until 280rpm with the stick forward, then brakes from park to flight, stick back and full throttle' and voila.... you should be flying. That doesnt cut it for me.... that doesnt teach people to know if the rotors are ready, or how close to ready they are... if it is safe to get off the ground yet or definately dont.... and when you get a rotor wobble because you are trying to get off too early, what to do.

I do admit openly, I havent flown a tub... and I really have no desire to either.... I have to do a bianial flight review, but there is only tubs and side by side enclosed machines to do it in.... there is no way I am going to learn to fly a tub to pass my BFR, so I can fly my basic machines.... for one, I dont want to lose my instincts for the basics by having to learn to forget what I know already, that I know works for me. So, I have spoken to ASRA and will be able to demonstrate capability in a basic machine, which I will be doing once I finish playing imps and get my 503 machine together.... even if it is just for hops and lengths of strip stuff.... When I go down to Canberra again, I will drop in on Sam and go for a blast in a Titanium tho, just for fun

I teach many kinds of landings. One very big problem I see is when students cannot land in a stable approach. They must show me a stable and fully controled approach to land befor I let them learn short slow flair landings. Many CFI's teach on grass and that is much more forgiving then pavement. I have rebuilt several gyros that were low and slow landing victims on pavement. Many caused by lack of directional control. Before I sign them off I cut throttle at many points and situations to make sure they can land that dang aircraft. Every design is different and some hold energy better then others. Some have more float. The MTO with no wind will almost always have ten feet of ground roll on pavement. This comes from over 1500 hours of flying them. Now can I zero ground roll in calm wind? Sure but should a novice do this? Probably not. I have had 5 engine outs all of them with out incident.

I can always make videos of aggressive stuff stop and drops hammerheads, and many other things that I can make a gyro do. But that's what gets new people into trouble. They need to master basics and fly a clean profile which most people I see at fly ins usually toss to the wayside. Every manouver I teach has a standard and set of rules. Nothing is made up or winged. They are procedure based. They have a setup and parameters to stay in the safe zone. This video was made to illustrate what happens with students in flair with drift problems . It was presented in as simple of a process as I could to show a problem and a solution. I had a student that had over 70 gyro hours and a light sport certificate but still had dangerous landing problems. He called me because he said he needed help to fix this and was not having luck anyplace else. I figured many others might benifit. I have seen this same problem come up many times.

I will keep saying, Desmon, this is nothing to do with you personally... no matter what YOU can do, you can only teach what the manufacturers manuals guess is the right thing...

I think you should be teaching swoop and plop power off landings FIRST... once they can do that... then teach them powered descents.... that way when the motor goes quiet all of a sudden... they will simply land the thing wherever they can squeeze it in..... rather than panic looking for a mile long flat bit to land on.... Edit: Even teaching powered landings first is a GA/plane thing... I dont understand why people want to treat gyrocopters as planes? They are not planes not planes not planes not planes not planes not planes not planes not planes!!!!!

My issues with the whole tub clone thing,,, is they have made such a simple, light weight, cheap and unreliable (but fun) machine into a, complicated, heavy, expensive, reliable thing... that needs rules re written to cater for thier weaknesses such as excess weight.... which effects everything, from they type of strip that can be safely used to the speed they have to takeoff and land.... yet the rules that have had to be changed for these, have been enforced on us homebuilders, who dont need the rewritten rules... just the (more) reliable engines will do

Oh, and after all of that... yes, your video is very well done