A little bit to do with the RWF; Birdy posted the video and analyses it as torque roll, torque roll, torque roll.....................
Anyway that apart, I'm here for my own understanding.
It seems no mention is made of the contributory effect of a larger body surface area on a Eurotub that at least in my experience would be something that I think can get me into trouble. So yeah even if there is some torque roll, the main thing is not providing compensatory input; thus allowing that strong sideways blast that first blows your helmet off then does all kinds of bad things to the gyro as you are flying sideways. That's why I was speculating about the Naked MTO being probably a lot more forgiving.

Just make sure your helmet fits and doesn't come off.... I personally believe the helmet coming off and the immediate disorientation/shock etc was the sole cause of that accident.... or he got physically knocked out as the helmet came off... if it was done up, the strap of the helmet might have caught on his nose and yanked his head back (whiplash) and because he was close to the water, before he had a chance to recover, he was in the drink.... Rule number 1/ make sure your helmet is on PROPERLY and fits well.... rule number 2/ if in doubt, refer to rule number 1

The Avomania tail has the leading edge (front few inches) of the airfoil of the HS curving up a couple of inches on the side that the prop blade is coming down and the airfoil curving down on the side the prop blade is coming up, so theoretically the swirling air when it meets the HS has the 'fastest getaway' as in, when it finds the HS the air doesn't build up under the airfoil on the upcoming blade side and on top of the downgoing blades airfoil.... which would create about .7697865886474 of a gram of torque roll.... and it means tails in production have to be for clockwise prop direction and anti clockwise direction of prop rotation.... because if you put the wrong tail on the wrong direction rotation of prop, it will make a big bad difference. This makes it hard when the machine is supplied with no engine and the buyer hasn't decided which engine or belt or gear redrive....

I personally, with no educated/professional knowledge, would prefer to have the tail neutral like an MTO so the buyer can fit what direction motor/prop they like... and just fly the phucking thing

Gyros are phucking gyros they are dynamic things to fly.... you cant really trim them to fly perfectly straight and level because the big whirly things on top chang the high up drag almost constantly.... so you have to correct with stick.... that goes for side to side as well as forward and back stick.... So, you have to always make corrections and fly it.... sure you can trim it fairly well for that given speed and wind, but if it gusts, even when trimmed, you might have to do an adjustment with stick woopty doo That is what I like about guros.... no auto pilot.... you have to fly it constantly.... a little less on calm, smooth air days, but the more wind/gusts, the more you have to be on top of it...

So, if you give it full beans for takeoff and have to give it some stick or rudder to the high side, so be it.... you cant tell me that the 'magic bullet' avo tail is going to cancel out ALL torque roll? And, what if the engine fails? I would rather the tail was neutral and not find that the offset airfoils make the gliding gyro (at fairly high speed) is making it want to roll one way or another...

Just fly what you got... crikey, we used to use flat plates and NO HS.... and if it handles different from a flat plate H tail or a tall tail with fixed neutral HS.... then that is how you fly it pretty simple

I think the avo up and down HS is not worth the drama.... to me it is just a 'selling point'.... 'look how stable and safe our machines are' until they sell someone a machine which they get beautifully painted... then find their choice of engine/redrive turns the wrong way or the tail

In other words Lofty.... don't worry about it.... gyros are such a lovely mess of opposing gyroscopic forces from engine/prop and rotors.... plenty of drag from airframe as well as constantly changing rotor system and all the JOY of our unstable aircraft (which is what I love about them).... so, get over it and go enjoy flying annoying orange

Oh, and for making me type so much and hurt my typing finger



May the best Trump win

Actually Joe the designer of the SkyCruiser had flown his naked for a while.
There wasn't much of the noticeable benefit of the nakedness.
Then again. You are absolutely correct about the tail surface size and the distance that thing is hanging way back.
That is a huge arm and sure makes the tail very efficient.
Not to mention the fact that the prop blast is not that big of the factor as it is to the Doms so when it stops it doesn't effect it as much either.
I loved all the dead stick landings in the MTO
Felt very stable and nailed every single one.
Maybe it felt better because of the lower cg on landing I never had that weird feel to it.
And then one time I did a wheelie too with an MTO.....but that's only a rumor.....
If I did that in a Dom I'd be still paying for it......

Wasn't he cold? He should have at least worn underpants or boxers.... what if he had to do an outlanding at a nunnery or something

The Aviomania tail has more incidence on one side than the other....I forget which side has what...I cant even remember which way the propeller would have turned!

But...as you add more power....you add more torque and higher slipstream velocity...The different incidence between the left and right side of the tail applies more counter torque as the power is increased...and vice versa.

It is not smoke and mirrors. Nicolas is a true aeronautical engineer and what I have seen with his hands off videos convinces me. Nicolas has probably pushed his gyro as far into the grey envelope and recovered as most anyone on the planet.

Thanks for all that Muz. You need some big breasted babe to take care of your delicate fingers.
I just like to understand stuff. I'm a pretty conservative flier I think, so not worried much about me pushing the envelope as I want to know what to avoid so something does not unexpectedly bite me.

But you push the (phucking big) envelope every time your take you backseat beefcake flying Just think of the strain on all the bolts and frame and stuff

MUZ
Sincerely
BSB
as in "Back Seat Beefcake"

Awe, but he is so cute.

You guys suck!

I am your fucking yaw control by the way!

And 'crotch cam' operator

I am not telling where the camera attached to using a rather large wrist strap but when you see both of my hands in the videos while I am panning 360* it ought to make you go: hmmmmmmmmmmm

Gabs, good thing I have that mic switch I often wonder what that kind of jerking movement is going on back there, and something banging on the back of my seat

Loftus- You ought to sleep in the same bed with Gabor. You should have heard the headboard banging the wall.. I just told Gabor "go ahead and finish".

Vance 3 seconds later says out of his bed in the corner.... ..."Wow!"

Vertical fins on the tail; what function do they serve? Do they help to counteract the yaw, or do they just look good?

They act as stabilizers in the relative airflow, so they are not so affected by the prop blast because they aren't in it alot and if the airflow is from 11 o'clock or 1 o'clock, there will always be one in the resulting airflow. That is what makes the tubs so stable on cross countries.... but, it is also why you don't see tubs doing stunts like what Roy D does.... all the fins and stuff at the back are great touring stability, but they act like dampers when it comes to serious 'play time' such as vertical descents or descents with a little rear slide action.... there is too much HS and vertical stabilisers to play as tall tail or single vertical fin designs can...

Not that that is a bad thing if you have your machine predominantly to go long distances every time...

That is why I keep yacking on comparing gyro designs to motor cycles.... one does one job.... like touring on a Harley with fairings and paniers.... the other is like a dirt bike...raw and naked.... you wouldn't expect to see a Harley or gold wing on an endure track or motorcross track..... and you also wouldn't expect to see 7 touring bikes ride past with someone on a KX250 trying to keep up on a long road journey....

You buy the gyro that suits what you intend to do with it, same as you buy the right type of motorcycle for what you intend to do with that as well.... neither is right and neither is wrong.... they are just different animals for different purposes

That is also why I say you need one of each type really.... most people I know with a big road tourer bike also have a dirt bike (or 3) and some people are now going for the half and half.... like the offroad touring bikes which can go on dirt roads easily and are good on tar as well..... to be honest, that is what I see euro tubs as.... the middle ground.... they can easily go long distance and they can also do some fun stuff around the home turf as well.

That is also why I had a thread way back 'them and us' about the 2 ends of the gyro scale.... because how I see it, if someone flies an open Dom, and 10 of his mates are going on a long cross country.... he cant expect to go.... the tubs wont want to have to slow down to the Dom's top speed ..... same as if there are a dozen open machines going to spend the day barnstorming the home strip, a guy with a tub can do it, but would prolly rather be heading off a couple of hundred miles....

So really, you get what you want and join like minded people in similar machinery.... which does create a divide 'them and us' but I don't see that as a bad thing..... like a guy with a Harley doesn't even consider joining the local motorcross club, and someone with a kx250 doesn't consider joining a road touring club, where everyone is riding 1200cc or bigger....

Nothing bad or wrong with either of those scenarios.... that is just the way it is

Plus, rich barstarges like Lofty don't have time to tinker (with anything other than boobs) so being able to get it serviced or order new spares suits him just fine.... other poor barstarges like me, enjoy making the bits and constantly tinkering/improving

To each, their own

Thanks for that explanation; makes sense. :
About the boobs as well

Hi:
The gyro accident at WAG was very unfortunate. That poor pilot had absolutely no business even being in that competition. He was a high time pilot but only 70 hours in a gyroplane not even the same model.
Supposedly throughout the race he was trying to sharpen the turns by slipping and one got him with the helmet coming off and the rest was chaotic inputs that resulted in him pulling up sharply while slipping and pushing down and to the right slightly very quickly creating low or really negative G (you can see slight negative coning in a few frames if you watch frame by frame in QuickTime etc.). He may have actually recovered if he had more altitude but his rotor RPM had also deteriorated a bit so who knows. However, he did not die due to hitting the water but because they did not find him for 10 minutes. He drowned.

The fastest gyroplane in that race was slower than the slowest trike in the race. The gyroplane slows down tremendously when loaded in high bank turns while a modern blade wing trike pulls a good 4 G's and keeps the speed. The takeoff roll was also in favor of trikes cutting time there as well.

The gyroplane pilots in WAG were not all that great. They were rich and had the time, not necessarily the best gyroplane pilots. The trike pilots from most of the countries were competition pilots like from Britain Paul Dewhurst etc. One of my students represented US in trikes there but it was his first competition of any kind. He managed I think number 10. Not bad for a rookie.

AutoGyro has the chest cam video and could see all the inputs and instrument panel for the sequence. The pilot did not just push forward according to them. He pushed forward and slightly to the right enhancing and helping the torque induced roll with rotor thrust vector gone.

Loftus:
The tall + tail does help a bit in yaw and torque roll compensation but it is a pathetic tail (its primary purpose) the way its used in gyroplanes as we see them today. Its extremely closely coupled. No aero engineer would ever recommend that for very obvious reasons.

The mechanics of a + tail are actually very similar to propwash as the wings of an airplane (twin especially).

First, lets get the terminology straight because in Australia and in Chuck Beaty's world the terminology is all messed up and not used in aero engineering which created a lot of confusion for me at least. There is no such thing as unswiriling the slipstream or propwash.

Here is what they meant to say.
1) Propeller obviously converts engine torque and power into thrust. That's its job. It does this with some side effects. Most of this indeed gets into throwing air back (thrust) but some inefficiency is due to some rotational drag on the propeller blades

2) According to Newton’s 3rd law, you can see that if the prop throws the air down on the left, it tends to make the gyroplane roll to the right. This is the result of the engine torque being converted into spiral slipstream or drag (waste) by the propeller blades. Birdy keeps thinking this is what is the cause of the torque. Kind of but the root cause is obviously the engine torque. Crudely put, take a model airplane (where the propeller rotates to the right) and hold it by the propeller. If you start the engine, the airplane will rotate to the left. No airflow from the blades there yet airplane turns because engine imparted the torque to the fuselage. So engine torque is the root torque cause.

3) Beyond this there is another type of torque. That from accelerating the engine itself. It produces net torque whenever engine is accelerating.

4) The spiral slipstream is like a corkscrew. It defines the helice that actually is dependant on the pitch of the prop blades and the speed of the aircraft.

5) The above means that anything like a + tail or a T tail can NEVER COMPLETELY compensate torque roll EVER. I don't care how many times Birdy wants to beat that drum but this isn't cattle herding.
Consider Piper Cherokee airplane for instance.
SOME of the Propeller slipstream hits the top of right wing and bottom of left wing. This actually reduces or counters the torque roll in this airplane which wants to turn it left (gyroplane being pusher turns right btw). But it can never reduce it to zero or cause a roll to the right. Similarly, any air intercepted and “straightened out” by the tail reduces the rolling moment somewhat. Using Newton’s law again, we see that if any air escapes while still rotating down to the right, the airplane will roll to the left still.
The only way to restore equilibrium is to take a corresponding amount of air and throw it down on the left. Airplane designers have long since learned about this rolling moment, and they take steps to compensate for it. For instance, they set the left wing at a slightly higher angle of incidence than the right wing. This is called, unsurprisingly, asymmetric incidence. It is especially useful to apply this trick to the part of the wing that flies in the propwash, so that the effect increases as engine power increases. On a Piper Cherokee, the roll-wise trim is easily adjustable on the ground — in the flap extension mechanism for each flap there is a turnbuckle that allows the flap to be raised or lowered until the roll-wise trim is just right.
If the roll-wise trim is just right in cruise, it will be nowhere near right during a soft-field takeoff. In that case, the propeller drag will be worse because of the high power, and the fancy rigging of the airfoils will be less effective because of the low airspeed. The result: you will have to deflect the yoke to the right, using the ailerons to counter the prop drag rolling moment because there is torque from engine accelerating as well. That is why smoothly accelerating the throttle is desired in smooth takeoffs.
So what will happen when our WAG pilot who cut power at the top of parabola and then pushed stick forward and also shoved throttle forward to full very fast. There is an instant (very brief) torque roll impulse from accelerating the engine as well. He had a triple whammy. Prop torque roll, engine acceleration torque and nose going down quick with rotor thrust disappearing. In a very short time, he had managed to do everything very very very wrong.

So this is what Chuck Beaty is saying is that the + tail by itself is not enough but actually needs Piper Cherokee like asymmetrical incidence within the prop slipstream. He is completely right. He keeps saying Cierva discovered this. Bull. Airplane engineers had discovered this before Cierva and were applying it to airplane wings differential incidence. Cierva just applied the same to the tail in a gyroplane because he had no wing on the gyroplane. He filed a patent for it. But just like on a Piper Cherokee where you can adjust this in the flap rigging, it does torque compensation for cruise. It compensates somewhat but still not perfectly for all situations.

The simplistic view that when these accidents happen you must be flying co-ordinated is flawed on its basis. We saw clearly that in the WAG accident there was significant slipping involved all the way to starting inversion. In a slip the airflow going on is interacting with the slipstream from the side at an angle, the rotor thrust vector is also reversing and doing something. The nose is going down creating turbulent airflow around the body to the prop. There is a lot interactions going on and this simple high school Physics view simply ignoring all that and just saying do this and it will work. May be in some circumstances and most likely not. These interactions are very difficult to model or predict honestly.
The torque is completely in pilot's hand.

CUT THE POWER and smoothly center the stick and pray. That's your best strategy and will almost work in every gyroplane if you start getting light in the seat.

No torque = No torque roll

Train for that reaction so it becomes second nature.


SLIP ROLL COUPLING

In airplanes this has way more complex than a gyroplane. There are many ways this happens in an airplane. One of this is due to dihedral of the wings, interference of fuselage with wings especially on high wing airplanes etc.

In gyroplanes its mostly to do simply with side profile, center of pressure on the side and its balance related to the tail. (Vertical tail that is).

Basically in this case, you want to put the center of pressure on the side behind the CG placement by a little bit and that has a stabilizing effect. Gyroplane tail couplings (even Magni, ELA, MTO, Calidus etc.) are inadequate compared to airplanes. Some airplanes have this problem also like Seamax, original KitFox etc.
I don't know if you know this but Apollo AG1 tail is 10 inches further behind say MTO Sport. You use right pedal on it as you takeoff due to p-factor as you change attitude from ground to takeoff. After that, you can rest your feet on the floor the whole flight pretty much and go from 5000 RPM on downwind to 3000 RPM on base and you do not need to touch the pedal.

When doing AR-1, we increased the winglet area by 80% and increased the rudder area by 65% beyond the 10 inches further moment arm AG1 had. This mainly helps when canopy is used. In aviation, many times design is the art of compromise. You don't get something for nothing. You don't get speed, comfort in a straight line without sacrificing being able to fly sideways at any speed. You don't get to fly sideways at any speed without sacrificing straight and level speed, comfort etc. Take your poison once you decide what type of flying is for you.

I prefer tails further back. No airplane has tails 12 inches behind the prop. They have over 100 years over modern gyroplane designers when we talk tails. They keep doing that because it works and is safe. The only reason a tail works 12 inches behind the prop is because prop is throwing air on it. What happens when the prop stops or is at idle and you are diving down at 90 mph? This tail is a result of ideas from Chuck Beaty and you will find him quietly defend it till the cows come home. I don't mind it but one needs to be clear of what creates personal biases like my bias to follw airplane design paradigm for the tail. That's my bias.

Thanks for that Abid, seems plausible.

As for the gyros being slower than trikes I find that hard to believe?? But then, if people are turning gyros like a fixed wing, I suppose they might slow in the turns....

however, if gyros are flown as gyros, a turn can be almost instant. My EA81 turbo direct drive, I could be doing 80kts one direction, throw a big turn and be going back the other way at 60kts in the blink of an eye.... If I were pylon racing, I would be passing the marker and hammering a big one not quite 180 degrees, to go around the marker and would hardly loose any speed....

My biggest issue with the modern titanic class gyros is that people fly them just like a fw? Like, in one youtube, that girl that flew nude.... lnded at 50 kts?? In a gyro??

Gyros are the worst ground vehicles imaginable... they should land at walking speed max.... preferably without turning a wheel... then unload the rotor.... then taxy.

It is my personal opinion that people need to be taught how to fly gyros as gyros.... none of this crossover half FW flight they all seem to do?