It is currently Mon Nov 25, 2024 7:45 pm



Reply to topic  [ 27 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2
 Is this a new / flying 4 place Aerocopter? 
Author Message
So, the gyros that do claim some lift from wing type surfaces like the Arrowcopter and to a lesser extent that Apollo. Obviously they keep the amount of lift below the 10-15 % Gabor mentions. Are there situations though with them where these surfaces can get you into trouble?


Thu Nov 20, 2014 7:18 am
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Sat Nov 02, 2013 2:18 pm
Posts: 11382
Has thanked: 16461 times
Been thanked: 10056 times
The ideal cabin shape would be a ball shape. It would have the same amount of lift and drag through and through. Side slips can mess up your day rather quickly with extra lift that is not anticipated.

_________________
Image
A walk in the woods helps me relax and release tension. The fact that I am dragging a body should be entirely irrelevant!
A simple thank you would have been enough for the morning coffee without all that "how did you get in here" nonsense.


Thu Nov 20, 2014 7:24 am
Profile
Online
User avatar

Joined: Wed Nov 06, 2013 5:21 am
Posts: 7151
Location: Lost
Has thanked: 115 times
Been thanked: 8645 times
Gabors, gyro:


You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

_________________
It's never too late to be a bad example.

I spent all my money on Bikes, Broads, and Booze, the rest I wasted.


Thu Nov 20, 2014 8:40 am
Profile

Joined: Thu Dec 05, 2013 9:38 pm
Posts: 2541
Location: Atlanta GA area
Has thanked: 800 times
Been thanked: 1151 times
MadMuz wrote:
GyroGeorgia wrote:
Can they qualify that at 1250 or 1320# ?

Would be cool to see Gyro's broaden their offerings.... would add to gyro's being a legitimate part of aviation.... rather than home-built barnstormer toys.


GG, gyros will never be anything but homebuilt barnstormer toys, in my opinion..... yes the factories building the clones make nice looking machines, but they are basically overweight barnstorming toys with nice pods and fairings.... they have only come about because of the lightweight reliable power plants on offer.....

The trouble with gyros since the start has been weight..... the more a gyro weighs, the more power it needs, the more drag it makes, the faster it has to lift off and land..... they become clumsy with heavier weights and although they make nice cross country machines, they are not as much 'fun' as just open or semi podded homebuilts.....

With the modern composites, modern engines etc available since about the 90's, if gyros could have been used as 3 or 4 seaters, it would have been done by now.... but it has been proven time and time again that to carry more than 2 medium sized people, costs too much in weight, drag and fuel to ever be considered for anything like mass produced type general aviation.....

I believe the next step gyros will take, is like a euro clone, but lose the frame and go monocock construction in carbon fiber, retractible and air conditioning/heating in the enclosed type..... All of the euro clones prove that that weight of machine can fly, the next step is to reduce the weight of the machine so at least the machine can carry 2 decent sized people and a decent amount of gas..... and to burn less gas doing it....

To me, real gyros will always be home built barnstormers :laughing I hope they never go away :pop

On the body creating lift, that is a definite no no.... nothing can be allowed to carry the gyro except the rotor.... anything that might possibly give any lift has to be behind the mast (CofG) because anything that unloads the rotor is inviting disaster. I have heard of people thinking of fitting canard wings at the front.... :eek but due to the way the rotor works it is obvious to me at least how deadly any sort of wing forward of the cofg would be.... no matter how cool it may look :pop :laughing


Muz... I think you make some good points there... and I am fine with gyro's staying home-built barnstorming toys... keeps the price down where us working guys can afford to fly.

I do think as construction techniques improve (monocoque Carbon fiber bodies)... and engines get more power with less weight... there will be potential room for more performance...
YET...
As long as 1/3 of the blades is dragging to spin them.... Gyro's will probably always be in-efficient. They ARE fun though... :)

I see the point of the body not producing lift... The rotor needs to do that... with the body hanging on the rotor. I do think there is room for engineering though... and there are a couple of birds being developed that do get some lift other than the rotors... Be interesting to see how that turns out.

THX for the post!

GA

_________________
John Morgan
PP-SEL
Former member PRA
Member PeachState Rotorcraft club
Member Sunstate Rotor & Wing Club
Owner/builder of
The Subinator: Single place Dominator/Subaru EA-81
(currently in full restoration)
Soon to offer machine shop services


Thu Nov 20, 2014 9:19 pm
Profile

Joined: Thu Dec 05, 2013 9:38 pm
Posts: 2541
Location: Atlanta GA area
Has thanked: 800 times
Been thanked: 1151 times
MadMuz wrote:
ALL IN wrote:
Gabor wrote:
Yes John on the fix wing all lifting surfaces are constant to each other. On the gyro the rotor disc tilting and will differential lift compared to the winglets. Not a good idea when you have to calculate vector forces.....

And won't the extra lift from the wings cause light G loadings on the rotors especially the faster you go = not good either in a aircraft that drags the rotors through the air to create lift? Right?

With wings I can go negative G's before I can stop it and have to fly back through it. But it doesn't matter in FW it fun to go weightless! Not so much in a gyro.


FW's can fly negative until your eyes pop :eek A gyro, the rotors are flying.... the 'airframe' is suspended below (but not flying).... the airframe of a gyro can not fly and must not fly.... any time you unweight the rotor, you risk a powered pushover.... unweighting means .5 of a G is not enough weight on the rotor.... it can and will slow down very quickly.... :eek

If someone made a gyro with winglets or lifting body... say they got to cruising speed say 60 mph and the body can create a .5 G situation at 70 mph..... the machine would go to 70 mph and the rotor would begin to slow down at 75 mph or the first gust of wind, the rotors would fold up and you would find yourself sitting in a lawn dart looking at your crash site (soon to be... very soon) :badluck :killme :laughing :laughing

That is also why, if there is X amount of drag from the pod/canopy in an absolute vertical descent, there has to be more than X amount of drag downwards (greater area) in the tail setup or horizontal stabilizer.... otherwise, in a true vertical, the machine would descend tail low and often slip backwards (tail slide/rudder reversal yada yada yada), which can be catastrophic as the prop blast could be blown away from tail/HS surfaces... :yoda2 Which makes for a bad day usually :badluck :yoda2


YUP... a tail down spin does not sound like much fun at all... might even be hazardous to one's health... :)

_________________
John Morgan
PP-SEL
Former member PRA
Member PeachState Rotorcraft club
Member Sunstate Rotor & Wing Club
Owner/builder of
The Subinator: Single place Dominator/Subaru EA-81
(currently in full restoration)
Soon to offer machine shop services


Thu Nov 20, 2014 9:24 pm
Profile
Online
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Tue Sep 02, 2014 7:45 am
Posts: 10129
Location: Poona, Qld, OZZY
Has thanked: 21874 times
Been thanked: 6221 times
That's right GG, I have seen a guy get in a tail down verticle and ended up on the ground in bits.... he survived ok, but the machine didn't.... :killme :laughing

He kept trying to nose down but it wouldn't do it.... was a V tail and the tail was well below the prop blast.... 2 things you have to remember if you ever get in that situation, stop trying to make it nose down and concentrate on getting backward speed...... then it will weather cock around to going frontwards and also, the rudder will have reverse inputs going backwards.....

Might save someone one day :like :pop

_________________
I do all of my own stunts..... most of them are even planned! Ok, Ok.... some of them are planned..

If electricity comes from ELECTRONS, then surely morality comes from MORONS??


Thu Nov 20, 2014 10:18 pm
Profile
Online
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Tue Sep 02, 2014 7:45 am
Posts: 10129
Location: Poona, Qld, OZZY
Has thanked: 21874 times
Been thanked: 6221 times
elwood wrote:
Gabors, gyro:


That is more likely to fly than the original one in this thread :laughing

Cant be Gabs, if it were it would be red and yellow (to match his flying suit) :rofl :rofl

_________________
I do all of my own stunts..... most of them are even planned! Ok, Ok.... some of them are planned..

If electricity comes from ELECTRONS, then surely morality comes from MORONS??


Thu Nov 20, 2014 10:21 pm
Profile
Reply to topic   [ 27 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1431 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
Designed by ST Software.
Americanized by Maël Soucaze.