BINGO ....... some-one needs to snag some of the parts inventory from BOTH Butterfly & AC ... to service those machines out there ... which are GOING TO NEED REPLACEMENT PARTS ... in the future! Wear & Tear ... "bingles" .... John Franklin & I had a long discussion about this need ... recently & the problems of being an "orphan" gyro owner!

This poses an interesting question to think about:

Say Billy and Bobby (ficticious names) purchase A/C and Butterfly... and offer the parts for sale.
Then say someone buys a part, puts it on his/her gyro, and later crashes and is killed.
Then the spouse get greedy...
Who is liable for the part?
And we could carry this one layer deeper: Say the part was manufactured after the purchase by B&B?

Some interesting questions to find answers to...

Incorporation and LLC's.

And good liability insurance....not necessarily in that order.

I saw somewhere putting labels NOT INTENDED for AVIATION USE disclaimer stickers on everything....

who knows in the end...anything can happen.

I never got sued when i had my dangerous hobby motorsports and recreational biz...not that ppl did not try
and or threatened......I just always manned up and resolved the situation even if it was not my liability.

U do what u gotta is the saying.....to a point anyway.

No guarantees in life but no reason not to do it anyway.

Nothing ventured nothing gained...just need to protect yourself if possible and go for it!!!

Whoever owns the name or the business at the time would be the most likely to be sued, the suit its self may not get anywhere, but it will be expensive and time consuming to defend ones self

Yup; those lawyers f%^& it up for everyone again.............

Yes, the legal implications would end any interest from most people with half a brain... there isn't any part that a butterfly owner cant get duplicated if anything is needed to be replaced.... prolly better to just let it all go..... safer

This is going to be a negative and tacky comment... however IMO we have just discussed the reason Gyro's have a hard time.
The purpose of the comment, hopefully, is to light a fire and get this issue addressed!

The FIRST thing the PRA needs to address... is to provide (arrange the availability of) QUALITY liability insurance for gyro owners, gyro manufacturers, and gyro parts manufacturers.

And here is the negative part: IMO until they do... there is not much use for the organization in its current status of secrecy, arguing, and playing politics.

That has been my question all along, why can we not get 3rd party liability ins????? I talked to someone that had a cavalon, and the insurance was over
$800 a month! He opted out, ridiculous!! Then again, without descent Ins, the bank won't make you a loan on an aircraft, so it brings it down to 2 players, people who can pay cash for a eurotub, and the ones that stickbuild cash as they go.

Sorry, I missed one...
And access to liability insurance for fly-ins and private airstrips...

Again, I realize I am being a bit blunt with this comment, not meant to be negative, just right to the point:

John R (All-In)... Can you get this issue on the table and get it resolved? (John, please do not take this personally... it is not meant that way. Rather, to light a fire under the whole gyro community).

If not... then IMO gyro folks need to consider going somewhere else where our liability needs will be addressed.
I think if someone approached the EAA... there may be a way to get us under their umbrella.

Regardless... the time for 'talk' is OVER... it is time for DOING. This issue needs to be resolved... and a time limit needs to be set... as a motivational tool to get the issue resolved.
How about the insurance WILL BE AVAILABLE by BensonDays of 2015? Is that too soon? If it is... then IMO a 'cast in concrete' date of Jan 1 of 2016 is 'D day' so to say. If the PRA does not have the issue resolved... then gyro folks move on to another source... and let the PRA die.
Yeah, this is kinda ruff... it is not meant to be. What it is meant to do, is light a fire under the butts of the BOD of PRA, to let them know the time for talk is over, time to 'just do it'... or suffer the consequences.

I see the public, in the elections, has chosen to send a message that gridlocked govt is no longer acceptable.... Perhaps we need to send that message to the PRA BOD...

Thoughts?

Hi John
I can talk about this because this all happened before I was a BOD member:

I started looking for insurance for myself, PRA31 and PRA and negotiated a basic group ins model with X-Insurance. They even added further discounts the more PRA/'The Group' would assume the risk/ 1st deductible.

We were at the stage for each pilot who wished group insurance filling out their from and then they would give us our final rates. I'll put this form online once we get to vote on it!!

I had a list of over 20 IIRC pilots on RWF that wanted a quote and I presented them to the BOD volunteering to finish the project for PRA.

It was taken away from me! Said "PRA's part should be handled by a BOD member" not a volunteer... way over a year ago. I told them well PRA 31 is to small so just handle it all.

Since then I and PRA 31 did not need ins yet. Will very soon... So I let you down and made the Mag the 1st priority not insurance as I've had to pick my fights and only recently changed my priorities too.

I just learned from the excellent complaints that chapters wanted fly-in group ins and members want personal group insurance 1st!!!

Waiting for Doug to schedule a meeting... Been waiting, waiting, waiting, waiting...

But I'm on this as soon as I get the project back!

Now that being said it is not a short process as the 1st quote from X-Insurance I will use to call and form relationships with all the other insurance co's and and ask them to out compete each other.

Then send the lowest to them all again! This takes time but you will know whats going on as the quotes will be posted on PRA web-site on the new progress report page.

All this has to be voted on of course but I'm trying... I'm waiting way to long for simple approval and we need to change that too!

But it is a blessing in a way as I've got some of our software tools up and running but I'd so much rather be negotiating business deals!

It will all be posted in our minuets this next meeting may be a good read if they keep in the part about asking whats been done on my project since I turned it over to them, on the record.

I would agree that the lack of insurance is one of the big factors that keeps the sport from growing, especially when an airport requires you to have liability ins, then you can't get any, or if you can, you wouldn't be able to afford the gyro after paying the insurance, so the prospective pilot decides to get a fixed wing, ultralight, PPG, or trike, happens all the time.
I ahev said it before.
USUA United States Ultralight assn, does just this for its members.

They insure everything BUT gyroplanes!
http://usua.org/Insurance/

What can be done to make liability insurance for gyros more available and affordable?

John, we all thank you for taking up this cause with the PRA as a board member.

First of all, we must recognize that insurance companies are in business to make money. Each insurance category is usually required to make a profit as a separate unit, so the total of premiums paid by gyros must cover all potential loss claims, all administrative costs of the insurance business (including building a reserve for potential claims) plus a profit.

Second, insurance companies must be able to accurately predict potential claims. The use a variety of models to analyse and predict the potential claims they might be exposed to before they issue any policy. Gyro accident history MUST be a big component in these analyses. The gyro design, particularly with respect to stability and reliability is also a large factor. How many gyros of this type are registered and how many hours and what is the accident ratio for this type. The pilot applying for the insurance is an even larger factor and the insurance company will look at their experience (hours in type), training (in type) and other lifestyle and risk factors.

Are there sufficient numbers of gyros (of each type) flying sufficient accident free hours to provide any statistically significant confidence for the insurance companies risk analyses?

Another inconvenient factor that will not help lower insurance costs is a lack of available instruction in most of the country.

A friend in the insurance business offers some hints for anyone applying for any insurance which I believe would be a good approach for the gyro community to work on. He says that the more detailed information that you can provide to the insurance to help their "risk analyses" will help your cause. He also says that the biggest mistake most people make is trying to avoid or even hide information they think will be detrimental to their cause. Insurance companies have vast experience with risk analyses and will see anyone trying to "enhance" the information they provide as inherently being a higher risk.

So, what can be done?

The best way to get the best rates is to provide the insurance company complete documentation related to gyro design stability, sufficient training availability by gyro CFIs, and develop thorough analysis of gyro accidents (otherwise they will only use FAA & NTSB reports which are woefully inadequate).

Just my $0.02.

I agree 100%, and we need financing too.
PRA mission is to grow the sport so is MINE and is why I have hope for PRA they share the same passion too.

PRA loves rotorcraft and can provide accident history at fly-ins for 50 years... way more than EAA or AROPA can or cares about us!

IMHO PRA is the perfect vehicle to educate insurance companies and provide group insurance to the rotorcraft community.

Group insurance has got to be cheaper as it's hard to get worse? My 30K Archer only cost $600 a year, my 28K new gyro from $6,500 to $3,200, sucks!

O'Bummer's new finance laws excludes even investment clubs so a PRA financing plan is going to take some creativity in the from of a catch 22 like setting up a holding company and leasing them back as they haven't excluded leasing co?

Yaw Mon! I did this for a flying club I set up for our Piper Dealerships, and many many clients in the past with many groups like individual small contractors forming a group to buy all their material at the same discounts as the BIG contractors because together they we a big buyer. Many things PRA can do this for not just insurance. Like buying all of our tea shirts, hats, etc as a group with one company who provides us better rates for the entire group... Same with setting up commercial group member buyer accounts at metals co and Aircraft Spruce, etc.

It was not hard with the 1st insurance co to educate them but he's a helicopter pilot and that helped.

Points in our favor:
1) We have so much less MASS and un-driven rotors compared to FW and helicopters that the damage to asses on the ground is going to be far less to everything but the gyroplane. And the majority fly in elsewhere areas.

2) Much of our accidents are pilot errors and PRA can insist on check out rides with additional training if they wish to join our group. He agreed about the training and liked this idea a GREAT DEAL!!! So there is a down side for our members if you choose to look for one.

3) PRA sets up a member insurance pool that covers the 1st deductible where the cost is covered by the members in the group with monthly payments until the saving account is paid in full then no more payments until the next accident. A little self insurance shared by the group really REDUCES the rates!!!!

There are more but out of time...

IMO this is a good start.

A side track: John, my purpose in starting this discussion was to light a fire... for two reasons:
First, to get the attention of TPTB (BOD of PRA)... of the wishes of the folks who are memeber/used to be members.
Second: To get some momentum behind the idea that we (gyro owners/pilots) WILL get insurance one way or another.... and if the PRA drags their feet again... they will be left behind... which well could be nails in their coffin. (Yeah, kinda ruff... but there is nothing like some cold reality to get folks off their butts and motivated... grin).

OK, back on track:
I like the idea of a members dues deductible fund... it will go a LONG way to get folks interested in consciously being CAREFUL when they fly.
I like the idea of a check-ride to get into the program.
I like the idea of this being something the PRA offers to members... a great incentive to join the PRA. I suspect when (if?) it is offered... membership will grow considerably.
Here are a few more ideas:
A personal deductible above the group deductible.
Different levels of insurance (do I want liability only, core damage, etc).
Specific $$$ limits on coverage.
Discounts for things like a check-ride every year, some form of pilot CE hours, etc... (to be determined).
Perhaps a vanishing deductible arrangement... where someone with multiple years of claim-free coverage, would get a financial discount... This might be an incentive to 'behave' when we fly... grin.

Hope all this helps...

Now back to my basic point: IMO (for what the opinion of one person matters); The BOD is now in a fish-bowl. They are in a position where they have been given a task to accomplish... and they need to 'perform' so to say... to regain credibility.
If they come through... it will be a step forward for the sport of gyro's as well as the PRA.
If they play the usual politics... well they may well be pounding nails into their coffins.
I also think the BOD guys need to have this CLEARLY explained to them... with the REALITY if they do not act... gyro owners WILL go elsewhere.
Not IF, rather WHEN...
To back up the reality if 'not if but when'... there needs to be a specific (fair) deadline, cast in concrete, as to when the BOD is gonna have a program for the masses.
Nothing like the reality of having one's position of power rendered useless... to get them motivated... grin.

Again, not trying to be a jerk... just trying to light a fire and get things moving.

THX John R, for all you are trying to do! It is appreciated more than you realize.

John/GA