OH OK Roger that. I think I have once mentioned not being a blind follower of the tall tail supremacy
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Fri Feb 12, 2016 3:02 pm
MadMuz
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OH OK Roger that. I think I have once mentioned not being a blind follower of the tall tail supremacy
Ditto that.... I prefer the tail to be further back and in cleaner air on a cruiser/cross country gyro and I never had any issues with the V tail further back throwing them around either.... but those who fly tall tails hard, like Roy D would find the tall tail more agile.... I have heard tall tails described as like 'power steering' .... I personally find them a bit light.
The beauty of our world is that you fly what you think is best for you I don't care, as long as there is something on the back so when you touch down, you are pointing in the direction you want to be
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Gabs, Lofty means a tail like a tall tail with a HS in the middle is like a cross/cruciform...
Lofty, A tail further back from the prop blast and the HS riding in cleaner air will assist to resist some torque roll... but I am not totally convinced that a tall tail with the HS at center of the prop nor the Avo tail with the angled HS have much affect on torque roll anyway.... every action has an equal and opposite reaction.....
To me, the best way of reducing torque roll is to use a gearbox rather than a belt.... so the torque from the engine and the prop going the other direction cancel each other out a bit, whereas, if you have the engine and prop going the same direction, the torque reaction from both add together..... It would be even better if the downgoing blade of the prop is going down on the side the rotor is retreating too I reckon....
Why are you so worried about torque roll suddenly Lofty? Are you having trouble with annoying orange? Or is it just because of the Dubai accident? If so, I don't think that had anything whatsoever to do with torque roll.... so just shut up and fly
No not having trouble; just amusing myself. Annoying Orange is behaving very nicely thank you.
Fri Feb 12, 2016 3:15 pm
MadMuz
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Torque roll is very real, I rebuilt a rotax 532 on a KB-3, it belonged to Debbie Bishop (used to date Steve McG..) And during break in runs I had the gyro tied down and I was in the seat, and at upper RPMs it would lift one main wheel off the ground trying to flip the gyro, so there is torque acting on the airframe at all times, equal and opposite reactions. Even with a gearbox or belt.
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Sat Feb 13, 2016 11:46 am
Gabor
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Scotty I love you like a brother......so let's break that whole experience down. You were on the ground sitting in the seat with all your 57-58 lbs right? You were not hanging from your teeter bolt having the weight supported buy the spinning rotor while the prop was trying to twist the frame on the retrieving blade side...... I know you know where I am going with this........ Now you are blasting your horizontal with huge airflow. Sure it will create lift. Am I not seeing it right?
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A walk in the woods helps me relax and release tension. The fact that I am dragging a body should be entirely irrelevant! A simple thank you would have been enough for the morning coffee without all that "how did you get in here" nonsense.
Sat Feb 13, 2016 2:34 pm
Gabor
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Meanwhile at the SkyCruiser autogyro ltd in Hungary they are working even on Saturday......
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A walk in the woods helps me relax and release tension. The fact that I am dragging a body should be entirely irrelevant! A simple thank you would have been enough for the morning coffee without all that "how did you get in here" nonsense.
Sat Feb 13, 2016 2:46 pm
elwood
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Scotty I love you like a brother......so let's break that whole experience down. You were on the ground sitting in the seat with all your 57-58 lbs right? You were not hanging from your teeter bolt having the weight supported buy the spinning rotor while the prop was trying to twist the frame on the retrieving blade side...... I know you know where I am going with this........ Now you are blasting your horizontal with huge airflow. Sure it will create lift. Am I not seeing it right?
Those wacky Hungarians......Lookin good!
Anyhow all I am saying is that there is torque being applied to the airframe at all times, regardless of the tail or anything else, In an unloaded rotor situation that could be bad, But with the tall tail thing vs short tail, it is all in what you want, with a tall tail you just steer on takeoff and landing since it cancels out P factor. On a short tail depending on how it is setup you may have to apply left or right rudder on takeoff and landing to compensate for P factor. I prefer a fin and rudder type tail, not a fan of flying tails, tall or short, too much yaw back and forth.
We'll have to talk about this more at Bensen Days.
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Sat Feb 13, 2016 3:22 pm
Arnie M.
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Back in 1976 I painted my first Pearl White car , used jewelry grade pearls ground to fine dust , put a couple of ounces of the powder in the clear-coat over a white base. Get the sun just right and it looked like an actual pearl .
Bought the pearl powder from Jon Kosmoski's House of Kolors store on Hollywood Boulevard near Sunset strip.
Jon started out in Minneapolis in the 1950's
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Sat Feb 13, 2016 3:44 pm
RossM
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Anyhow all I am saying is that there is torque being applied to the airframe at all times, regardless of the tail or anything else, In an unloaded rotor situation that could be bad, But with the tall tail thing vs short tail, it is all in what you want, with a tall tail you just steer on takeoff and landing since it cancels out P factor. On a short tail depending on how it is setup you may have to apply left or right rudder on takeoff and landing to compensate for P factor. We'll have to talk about this more at Bensen Days
when you talk, torque and P factor are two different things!
Sat Feb 13, 2016 5:37 pm
Gabor
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Anyhow all I am saying is that there is torque being applied to the airframe at all times, regardless of the tail or anything else, In an unloaded rotor situation that could be bad, But with the tall tail thing vs short tail, it is all in what you want, with a tall tail you just steer on takeoff and landing since it cancels out P factor. On a short tail depending on how it is setup you may have to apply left or right rudder on takeoff and landing to compensate for P factor. I prefer a fin and rudder type tail, not a fan of flying tails, tall or short, too much yaw back and forth.
We'll have to talk about this more at Bensen Days.
Agreed! I am not saying either that there isn't a torque factor in play. I just question its overstated significance of it, whereas other very very respectable aeronautical researchers disagree also. All I am saying is that with the increase of the sales of the Eurotubes by their sheer numbers being used as teaching tools would cause the triple number of accidents of the Dennis Fetters made no horizontal tab original Aircommand with its "clean break away mast"! There are just too damn many MTO, Calidus, Cavalon,ELA,Magni out there being very forgiving to the beginner hands like mine.
_________________
A walk in the woods helps me relax and release tension. The fact that I am dragging a body should be entirely irrelevant! A simple thank you would have been enough for the morning coffee without all that "how did you get in here" nonsense.
Yes torque and P factor are different things entirely.... I think I got confused since I had been reading the argument over there (RWF) about the Dubai crash....My bad..... I do not think that there is anything wrong with the new Eurogyros.......Being that they are longer than a standard single place gyro makes them more stable too.
Even Jim Vanek got rid of the tall tail on the SCII and went back the the triple vertical stab moved back.
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Sat Feb 13, 2016 6:22 pm
Hillberg
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I reckon It looks like a sperm? What is the gyro world cumming to?
I agree Scotty.... torque reaction will always be present no matter what tail you use.... so why fight it, just accept it and get on with the job.... any attempt to eliminate it with fixed angled HS or whatever will only reduce it at a certain speed, not across the board in its entirety
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Sat Feb 13, 2016 7:31 pm
Gabor
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YOU GUYS SUCK!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I HAVE ALREADY SAID IT CLEARLY!!!!!!!!!!!!
Gabor wrote:
This one .... as I have mentioned it.....goes to China.
I have talked to Jim on the phone about the tail and the effectiveness having them stick out and back and the airflow not being blocked by the pilot or the body of the aircraft is making a HUUUUGE difference. I trust Jim's opinion since he has actually built it flown it and went to the good ole fashioned half tail. I think I can say his machines have been flying around for a good while too with some pretty damn good track records.
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A walk in the woods helps me relax and release tension. The fact that I am dragging a body should be entirely irrelevant! A simple thank you would have been enough for the morning coffee without all that "how did you get in here" nonsense.
Sat Feb 13, 2016 7:40 pm
MadMuz
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Good on him.... it doesn't matter what tail you choose, as long as it is effective and does the job... who cares, when in the drivers seat, you cant see it anyway
As long as it is there and working.... all is good
Is that your one Gabs? I thought the grey one went to china?
_________________ I do all of my own stunts..... most of them are even planned!Ok, Ok.... some of them are planned..
If electricity comes from ELECTRONS, then surely morality comes from MORONS??
Sat Feb 13, 2016 8:18 pm
Gabor
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A walk in the woods helps me relax and release tension. The fact that I am dragging a body should be entirely irrelevant! A simple thank you would have been enough for the morning coffee without all that "how did you get in here" nonsense.
Sat Feb 13, 2016 8:26 pm
Gabor
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Yo Muz do you think Lofty is developing some kind of phobia about his screaming tangerine being HTL, Half tail and not compensated for yaw nor torque roll? ROFLMAO That thing flies like a freaking arrow!
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A walk in the woods helps me relax and release tension. The fact that I am dragging a body should be entirely irrelevant! A simple thank you would have been enough for the morning coffee without all that "how did you get in here" nonsense.
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