I litterally did tens of engine failures simulations on ascent during my training, and the D day i did it rigth, it shows that by no way must we stay in a standard flying zone of confort

skills can be built little by little, out of a question of doing anything, but working spot landing is essential .. I have always refused to rely on an engine to survive , and even if we won't be birdy pilots , by no way must we be standard bath tub pilots ...

if we did not have bollocks none of us would have taken off on monoseaters and homebuilt monoseaters without dual training on them ... we aligned, prerotated , took off and fown into the pattern, in my case i had a 40 hours fligth experience in dual and 2 hours solo in a magni ... i know dozens of intructors who have never flown a monoseater !

so learning to approach steeper and flare at the right moment is not a so crazy thing

I Agree ... Damn

Giro, you are correct... from climbing until the motor stopped, I didn't change the stick position... once I knew the motor had stopped, I let the stick go to neutral, then slowly eased the stick forward... as in letting the nose lower down...

You will notice I always mention this, as I don't ever want to give anyone the (false) idea that the motor stopped and I slammed the stick forward. I go on about 'easing the stick forward' and 'letting the nose down' so that anyone reading, knows that the stick can never be 'thrown forward' at any speed.

Same as a helicopter following terrain... sure if the terrain drops in a fixed wing, it is quite normal to push the stick/yolk forward to descend with the terrain... rotary wings need to reduce altitude in other ways than by the stick, like reducing power or pitch.

Benry... the first thing I would try to learn the steep downward descent... would be at high altitude, nowhere near the ground, start a descent like you are on final at your normal approach speed, lower the engine to idle, then lower the nose and see how steep a glide you can maintain without your speed going too high... then you will get to learn how to keep a speed on a steep glide... then power on and fly out of the descent... once you are getting really familiar with the steep descent, you can start trying to incorporate it into your 'normal' landing procedure. However, you being at an international airport... this is better to be done at a smaller airfield/strip away from the international airport... these landings would likely be too slow and fixed wing (especially airliners) would not expect this slow gyro at such huge airports.

As I have said before, when I would fly at airports that had fast spam cans in the circuit, I could do a circuit the same speeds (or a bit faster) than a 152... about the same speed as a 172 ...My turbo subaru machine could sit on 90kts, so if others were in the circuit, I could approach at 65kts... level off at about 5' off... run along the runway at 5' slowing to a good spam can taxi speed... get to the taxiway, still at 5' off... if into the wind, keep flying, if down wind, land then taxi on wheels... This way, I wasn't getting in the way of spam cans and they didn't get the shits.

The pics are the letter I had from CASA (our FAA) from 1995 (when gyros were only allowed to fly at 300' and below and NOT at airports) giving me permission to fly from 500'-5000' based on my GA background.

Muz,

Thx a lot for going on discussing this with us, it is really important.

it is a good idea to suggest to begin training by testing steep aerodynamic descents, however and even if my flight experience is so short ( 400ih hours) that I should shut my big mouth I have the furious willing to pull back the throttle, then to pull the stick to cut forward speed an lift the nose, then to leave the giro get back flat (without moving the stick as we were saying) and then after this to push the stick (in a slow motion) to dive steep ("un-aerodynamically"), exactly the same way that what happened to you when your engine quit.

I am saying this because I think that passing from motorized level flight to an idle steep descent will not produce the same angle of descent then the one you had.

when your giro stopped at the top of your trajectory, you had a very slow forward speed, then and instead of getting in a conventional vertical auto-rotation it seems to me that you entered in a sort of free fall which in absence of lift gave you a tremendous vertical speed and a moderate horizontal speed ( you did not want to land above the fence as you mentioned) .

all of this is more a felling the a scientific reasoning of your, it comes from my sensations practising elliptic trajectories

Yes Giro, there was no ground speed after that engine out landing.

Also, yes, I did not change the stick position as the engine stopped... let the machine level out then lower the nose... but it was very quick... like a blur, rather than stages...

As I said previously... I say it how I do, so that anyone reading understands that I did not suddenly throw the stick forward as soon as the motor stopped... that would not end well... that is why I keep saying that I waited for the airspeed to reduce... the machine began to 'sink' and as it did, I let the nose down to gain airspeed in the glide.... then, when I saw the fence, I had to 'aim low' (haha) and glide very steep... but at any time, if I saw I was going to be too close to the fence, I could have relaxed the glide and gone less steep and over the fence to land... it just worked out perfectly on the day.

I must say... as I was getting close to the ground, my eyes were getting bigger and bigger... I kept thinking "I should flare now!... I should flare now!!... About now I SHOULD FLARE!!!" and then I did flare and sort of 'helicoptered' the last foot or two...

I must have done it ok, because there was no hard landing, no bump at the bottom... it just worked well... and lucky Sam was there to film it... the camera did wobble a little... Sam thought I was going to hit the ground and come out in China somewhere

I am actually looking for other gyro footage I have on hard drives... I put all of my gyro videos on disk... once I locate them, I will put them up... I know I have some other good stuff... it is just locating them

This is all great info on this topic!
Thank you.

Something else that made that engine out landing softer, was that when I flared close to the ground from such a steep glide, I was at such a low altitude that as I flared, it was in ground effect... so, with the rotors really wound up from the glide, the extra lift in the flare from being in ground effect was enormous for a few seconds.

When you watch a bird land, they often swoop in steep and fairly fast, then flare and stick their feet out... and give it some hard flapping as they settle on the ground... with a gyro (old school, not tub)... we can do the same... wind up the rotor speed in the glide, then time the flare to be at ground effect for the extra lift within ground effect as the rotors slow, the lift reduces... it is all to do with timing. We all know what it is like when you get the timing wrong... like flaring too early... then having to let the stick forward and add power to avoid a hard landing

Hi M Muz

in a normal situation we descend , lift the nose of the gyro, fly level 1 m above the ground engine idle leaving the gyro loosing little by little it's energy until it touches down

it is perfect because we can't hit to ground hard because we after flaring we are flying in parallel with the ground, but the angle of decent is so flat that we are unable to touch down exatly where we need .

by contrast, in your spot landing, your trajectory angle with the ground was so big that the lift build up generated by the G load build up was not enough to put you in a level flight , then you did more a controlled crash then anything else,

I think as a matter of fact that ground effect helped, playing the rôle of an air cushion

good shocks must be really helpfull also, I have mounted really good french aviation shock called "fournalès" on the tandem

Fournalès is a former space engineer who designs really light, ajustable aviation shocks

That is the difference Giro... 'my' stop and plop landings aren't even mine... they are just what we learned back in the day with single place basic machines... especially those with McCullock motors (and VW) as you may take off with the motor, but you couldn't really depend on having use of the motor on landing

The beauty of the gyro, is it can land short... or land long... land fast... land slow... I just chose to make 90% of my landings without power, so that if I lost the engine for some reason... I just proceeded to do a 'normal' (for me) landing.... rather than have to quickly adjust to the motor quitting unexpectedly.

Good suspension is handy... but done right, a stop and plop can be done effectively with a straight beam axle.

In tubs and two place machines with 'the manual'... I would recommend only to do what the manual says... deviating from specific manuals will likely void any warranty or legal challege.

I had once asked Jim V. The owner of Sportcopter and my CFI if you were to do a vertical descent to the deck in my Sportcopter, what would be the outcome? (At the time Larry Neal of Butterfly had come out with his G-Force landing gear which allowed just that) he replied, " you would walk away most likely without a scratch, but the rig would be destroyed. At the least the blades would be bent down. But there is no reason to descend to the deck."
I have often thought of this as I fly over places now regularly that do not present good engine out opportunities.
I think what it comes down to in my mind is, knowing/believing I will walk away, but not worrying about the damage to my rig.
If I have to "drop" into 2 feet of water, I should think that forward motion is a very bad thing and a vertical drop preferable.
Praying I never need to find out.

M Muz,

I am speaking freely with no certitude, I encourage you and all to point out my errors of analyse

I have been trying to think about our discussion and I came to the conclusion to be verified that the angle of descent was a very important factor in the stop and plop spot landing.

Why ? : because the centrifugal force will be huge when trajectory will pass from say 45° to 0° (flare) hence the g load will build up hugely and the high lift will cut speed and prevent the crash

On an opened mono seater drag is high and provides a steep engine out descent angle which is not the case of my small gyro which fairing and long rotor provides a 1:4 gliding ratio.. and a flat engine idle decent angle ..

in your case, the absence of fairing, the impressive speed loss on top of trajectory, and your big pair of balls gave permitted this trajectory

in my case, if I fly at 110 km/h, pull back throttle and nose down like you did , this is a good 160 km/h that I will get .. for sure ..

hence I think that what I'll have to do is a forward slip approach, I think it will build up my drag, steepen my trajectory but at a moderate airspeed and stop and plop me like a fall .

Benry,

you are perfectly right, in case of and engine failure a vertical descent in shallow water is the better, just undo your seat belt just before vertical impact , a friend of mine ended in a shallow lake but went to a tough time undoing is seat belt ...

Yes Giro... you have to reduce the speed before you lower the nose... as you say, if tou are doing 110kph and lower the nose, your speed will increase dramatically... however, if you reduce your speed to 15kph with the stick slightly back, then allow the nose to drop, you can glide steeper and steeper without letting the speed get away... this is why my suggestion is to practice at higher altitude (nowhere near the ground) to slow, then lower the nose and learn how steep you can descend without the speed getting away...

Thinking about it, I am guessing that in the steeper descents, the machine is half doing a vertical descent and half flying forward. If you are flying at 110kph, there is very little drag from the rotor disk... so, you need to slow to put the rotor in a high drag situation, then lower the nose and still use the stick to keep the drag high... does that make sense?

ok , just assumptions I am not Chuck beaty but here is my analysis of what happened to you

sorry if my analysis is bullshit

you were ascending hard, your engine quit, then your giro followed a parabolic trajectory, the centrifugal force equaled your weight, no weight no lift = zero G , then you began free falling and your gyro accelerated back under gravity (9.81 second per second acceleration)

during this acceleration the gyro goes back to 1 G and lift resumes .... but it takes time and during this time descending slope remained very steep ... you were not high enough for the gyro to find back it's lift and flatten aerodynamically your trajectory before you pulled the stick , generated centrifugal force, high and rotor acceleration

if you had been higher, you would have gone back to 1 G before approching ground, and your trajectory would have flattened and you would have landed after the fence

then I think that if our engine quits during a level flight in 1 g situation ok it would be possible to lift the nose pulling the stick but the parabolic trajectory produced by this manoeuver would not be parabolic enough to low down the G force, anihilate weight, lift and generated your free fall acceleration and steepen your descent before resuming in an aeroerodynamic situation.

so in my really really reeally humble opinion this is not the solution Muz

in my humble opinion the training should be :

- in first step for those who are not trained for this to systematically land engine idle to get used to the steep slope and then maintain a normal say 90 km/h 55 Mph air speed

- in a second step doing the same and performing a forward slipping approach to increase vertical speed without encreasing airspeed

.. this is just what I think ..

all of this has to be done little by little keeping in mind that the only reliable speed indication is the wind noise and feeling .. because the speedometer won't display the right value ...

it is called becoming a real pilot ... and it requires bollocks and experience ... to thing that I lake ... hahahaha

what do you think ?

sorry for my english ... it is a foreing langage for me . a pain in the neck

Well it beats my French.
I am not sure doing a slip while doing a vertical decent will make much difference.
You could try shallow S turns to a specifi height to ensure you hit your target.

you have very few reasons to learn french Bro, if you ever plan to come in france , learn Arabic, it will be more useful !

as for the slip, in a free fall situation like I was trying to say, slip would be tottaly useless I agree, on the other hand if you are gliding (what I called aerodynamic), it would be the only mean of increasing your descent rate (slope steepnes) without increasing your air horizontal speed and without doing a slalom.

I tried to slalom and for the moment it has not been a success , but I did not try long enough to master things ...

Gosh I have found this video..

https://youtu.be/8RIbEzvsVXg

[Youtube]https://youtu.be/8RIbEzvsVXg[/Youtube]

this is absolutely crazy ... Muz you have a clone !

and other crazy man :

https://youtu.be/3wPDeQkweNM

[Youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3wPDeQkweNM[/Youtube]