Had a great chat with Mark and Britta Penca today, they are really interested in selling Brittas 2 place Air Command. I had Britta take my youngest up for a ride in it once and it is a great machine.
Thing is the price is phenomenal for a two place with 912, yeah its over TBO, but they are only asking 20 K for a completely running and useable two place with Sport Rotors!
If I was in a different position in my life right now I would have this gyro! But it wont travel on the road with me very well, certainly not as portable as my ppg.
But if you know someone who isint going to kill themselves with a gyro, this is one of the best values I have seen in years....
Im sure some day im going to regret letting this one slip past me:(

Henry,
Do you have any pic's or contact info to get more info on the Two place air Command?
Also, where is it located?
thanks

Its located in San Manuel Az.
There are pics on the classified section at RWF.
Call Mark or Britta at 520-840-0186, and tell them Ben sent you.
If you strike a deal, I want a ride as a finders fee!

here you go ...this is a picture from Mentone 2012!

Thanks guys,
There is a fixed wing CFI in our EAA group in Western Oklahoma who has the bug real bad. This might be exactly what he is looking for.
Thanks Chris for the picture. Hope you and Jim are doing well.

It sure looks great and has the trusted Rotax powering it.
Can't go wrong with that combo!

Yeah well it has a high thrust line and linked nose wheel steering.......

Is that a 912 or 914?

ROFLMAO............
Does it really have coupled nose wheel?
I never knew.
I always thought that was a differential steering.
I always learn something.
By the way.
I think this HTL myth is so overblown.
Was a great marketing tool for the Doms but it's significance is a bit oversold I think.
There are plenty HTL machines out there flying great.
There are plenty of gyros without Horizontal Stabs flying great.
Are they forgiving to beginners?
No! But that doesn't mean they are killing machines and I have personally seen the result of a forgiving Dom end up being caught up in the wing of a parked Cessna do to the impossible PIO since it was perfect CLT?????
Sooooooo
Is a CLT better? Sure. Is the HTL dangerous? It depends how much higher and who flies the sucker.

Looks like a 914

USUALLY......the 914 is identified by the red valve covers.....but sometimes people will paint them to match the aircraft....

Valve cover I.D ...
black: rotax 80hp
dark green :100hp ULS
Red : turbo 914
brighter green: 912 IS
light blue: 915 135hp injected turbo

but all that means nothing if Lofty decides to paint his valve covers orange.

The HTL thing....
Yes the CLT is much easier and safer to fly because the machine does not get all squirrely in wind gusts like a HTL machine...
A nice large or adequate sized stab is a no brainer, even birds still have them, for good reason.

a 2 place HTL machine will be more stable than a short coupled single that is HTL.. longer moment arm, etc.

The whole RAF thing is another story all together.....

I do feel that it is a good idea to get training in a slightly HTL machine, so you can be made aware of the
pitch instability and what to do about it and how to handle it. then you can fly anything.

I think Britta's is a very nice machine, great for training too. It does have a large stab on it too which is good.

But when ever they make things more fool proof, someone comes up with a better fool..........

Great that means you can die really quickly.... with alot of power

Or as we say in Australia, rather than die.... you get 'Fisterised' because death and Fisters is the same thing... or Fisters causes death... something like that?

Definitely a 912 ... I've been fooled twice by thinking a red-valve-cover-matching machine paintwork was a 914 ... One was Craig McP's original MTO trainer ... & Britta's ...flown both in 2012!

This flies nicely as I recall! The 912 was a bit of a strange set-up ... with the top mounted exhaust & unique arrangement of the carbys! Stilll ... they have flown many training hours with it & they do their maintenance well!

What was the last deadly accident you have heard of that happened because of HTL?
With all the large horizontal stabs on the machines nowadays the thrust lines are becoming more and more forgiving.
I am not questioning the CLT being superior I am only pointing out that HTL being killer machines is a myth.
The number of Eurogyros out there flying just fine and doing all kinds of tricks are proof of it.
CLT was nothing more but a great selling tool for a certain brand of gyro.
That certain brand of gyro is not a Dominator of the gyro production anymore but the Eurogyros taking over the market and their HTL seems to be negligible in their flying characteristics and ability of doing all kinds of tricks the same as open frame gyros.
Tail overs and dead spirals are just as safe as in a Dominator.
I know because I have done them in an MTO myself.
Not once did I feel anything weird in that machine and having that huge tail that far out on that long arm sure makes things very stable.
I am just not seeing the importance being that crucial of being center line or high thrust line anymore.
Obviously not grossly high!

The more I fly the Eurogyros the more I like them.
On landing having the cg low makes such a different feeling.
All the CLT machines have to be super square on landing.
Damn Eurogyros just don't wanna tip over even on sloppy landing.
I have managed to scare myself with a couple of CLT machines.
So I just prefer machines that actually are forgiving with the very thing that is the most crucial and that is landing.
It's really just the matter of preference for me. That's all.

You don't need to land fast in a gyro.

As I have said before, there is good and bad about both designs.... to me, there is a limit to how high a thrustline can go before it is deadly unsafe, but there is also a limit to how LTL a machine is before it becomes unsafe (for other reasons)

ASRA wants/demands us to build machines no more than 2" HTL.... so 0-2" HTL is the approved aiming point.... however, I personally will be happier between 5"& 2" HTL.... The important thing, again, as I have said before also.... if a person owns a dominator, a euro clone... and an original Bensen.... you just have to remember which machine you are in and which reaction is correct for the machine you are in 'at the time' of something unusual happening.... because what might work in one, may spell doom and gloom in the others....

The actual height of the thrustline is not really the issue (within reason) ..... it is knowing the approximate thrustline and knowing how to treat the machine accordingly.

To me, a HTL machine is generally a more stable machine on the ground.... but has the obvious instabilities in the air.... whereas a close to 0 thrust line machine is way more forgiving in the air.... but not so on the ground

The only gyros I have flown are a Dominator, my MTO, a Magni and the Titanium. Despite all the opinions on things like linked nose wheels etc, one thing I am pretty adamant about is that the thrust line on the MTO (and the Euroclones) is a total non-issue, whatever it is. One can argue about the nose wheel etc, but in terms of pitch stability the MTO, the Magni and the Titanium are stable as a rock in my opinion. I have never experienced any type of PIO tendency, even in training. To me the pitch stability of the MTO feels no different to flying a FW Cessna 152 for example. Obviously it has to do with the design combination of the horizontal stab and the thrust line, neither functions independently.

I think the saving grace of the euro clones is their weight.... because of their weight, and the fact that they aren't that agile (compared with a single place open machine) .... they never really get the rotors flat enough to be on the verge of a negative rotor event....

My turbo EA81 machine was quite heavy, and I was heavy, so that prolly saved me... my machine was good for 95 kts.... no one could keep up When I went on cross countries with Sam (titanium Sam) I used to have to keep circling back to make sure I hadn't lost anyone

But Sam's 582 machine was nowhere near as fast... but man, it was agile

But it is like trying to compare a Gold Wing touring bike with a 2 stroke 250 dirt bike.... you cant compare, they are designed for different purposes.... that is why I say all gyro people need a heavy touring machine and a light weight 'throw about' machine.... just like serious bike riders have a road bike, motorcross bike and prolly a mountain bike as well.... and you cant compare any of those either....

just enjoy what you got I reckon

Yeah agreed. Just think the emphasis on whether a machine is CLT or not depends on the design of the complete machine, including stabs etc and cannot be considered good or bad on it's own. Just like some FW aircraft will have high thrust lines due to high wing power plants etc, and others will not. As the old Moody Blues song goes, it's a question of balance.
Speaking of HTL aircraft, check out this baby
https://twitter.com/clamarfloats1/statu ... 6788174848