Me bad, I don't even pay attention any more, just do it by feel. Next time I fly i will look, flew yesterday, Maintenance test flight, didn't even look, just looked at EGT and water temp.
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| Landing Speeds / Profiles http://skywolverines.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2038 |
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| Author: | loftus [ Fri Jan 23, 2015 9:22 am ] |
| Post subject: | Landing Speeds / Profiles |
I know Muz comments about the high landing speeds of the Eurotubs. I definitely think to a large extent it's how one is trained to fly. A lot of the Eurotub training is to assume glide speeds etc similar say to a Cessna 152 on approach, then flare of course just before the wheels touch. Sometimes coordinating that is not quite as perfect as it should be for me. So the way I have learned on the MTO was 55kt approach glide angle with the flare just before approach - as I get better at it and tend to level out before touch down and jet let the aircraft settle in ground effect, I find my touch down speed is usually about 35-45 kts. If I am much slower than that I may tend to drop in a little hard. If I get my flare just right etc, my ground roll is usually just a few feet. So I am interested to know what the different folks flying different gyros do, what their speeds are etc |
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| Author: | Gabor [ Fri Jan 23, 2015 9:28 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Landing Speeds / Profiles |
I usually land the Eurotub around 65 KTS. It gives me an opportunity to do another landing and a wheelie. But I like it that way. Now for the Calidus.......anything under 50 is suicidal. That baby sinks faster than the MTO. |
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| Author: | elwood [ Fri Jan 23, 2015 10:47 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Landing Speeds / Profiles |
Me bad, I don't even pay attention any more, just do it by feel. Next time I fly i will look, flew yesterday, Maintenance test flight, didn't even look, just looked at EGT and water temp.
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| Author: | farmer jim [ Fri Jan 23, 2015 11:33 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Landing Speeds / Profiles |
More thots, plz ! Fick you, fj 
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| Author: | Hellified [ Fri Jan 23, 2015 12:07 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Landing Speeds / Profiles |
I landed all my 4 gyros at idle, and tried to land slow as I could like it was a real engine out. I never could understand gyros landing fast. Many land fast...but the same gyro is landed very slow by others. Of course some side wind it helps to keep some throttle on....but a good side wind, I would just land directly into the wind at an angle across the runway....and do it very slowly. This worked in my Bensen, Air Command, RAF2000, and my SparrowHawk. If I landed more than 10 mph....I was not on my game and if it were more than 15 mph...I would be chewing myself out. In my opinion, the real engine outs that have damaged gyros is because they were used to landing them at 30 mph....instead of less than 10 mph like they can be. |
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| Author: | Gabor [ Fri Jan 23, 2015 2:19 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Landing Speeds / Profiles |
Every machine will have its weight to speed ration guys! There is no such thing as a thumb of rule for all. The heavier the machine the more speed you need to keep it in the air. Period. Your sink rate is more important than your airspeed. Temps and altitudes will change that too. All those things are variable. Not to mention the last second wind direction change.....  Fick you FJ 
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| Author: | Hellified [ Fri Jan 23, 2015 3:00 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Landing Speeds / Profiles |
A heavy machine can be landed slow....done it many times...seen it done many times. Steep power off approach flare and burn that airspeed off. A gyro is a fantastic machine for real engine outs...but the engine seldom quits over the runway...but out over rough short patches of terrain. You guys have some real engine outs where you are only used to landing fast...are going to have to learn real quick how to get that airspeed bled off, and putting that energy into the rotor. I have had 18 real engine outs. 2 were over a runway. Several in beans , grass waterways....bean stubble......oh one was on U.S State Route 45 where I did land at 30mph because of car traffic . Never scratched my gyros doing these. Had I landed at 20mph or faster...I bet I would have balled up several times and probably would have been injured just as many! |
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| Author: | ALL IN [ Fri Jan 23, 2015 10:17 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Landing Speeds / Profiles |
I have more landing in a Calidas than any other gyroplane. With my LOW weight and Micheal is not that heavy I was landing IIRC at 45, 47 knots to achieve the correct glide slope! I don't think it was 57, but will have to ask Micheal after your post I doth my memory after reading your post. |
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| Author: | MadMuz [ Fri Jan 23, 2015 11:36 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Landing Speeds / Profiles |
When I learned to fly the Grummans and the Cessnas, you were taught to land on the mains and hold the nosewheel off until it drops on itself.... I learned early on in gyros that you touch down as slow as possible and hold the stick back until the nosewheel settles because the rotors blow off their lift.... then you can taxi..... any time a gyro has lift in its rotor system, taxying becomes more risky.... I generally land like Stan does..... always with engine at idle unless wind or weather stipulates differently.... every landing is like an outlanding.... so when an outlanding occurs, it is just a normal landing.... I know what you mean lofty, how you come in fast and maybe run along a foot above the runway for 200 yards before finally settling on..... when you are running along the rotors are slowly dissepating their lift.... the way Stan and I land, is to come in steeply with no power and flare quite hard at the appropriate time, which loads up the rotors, then settle on at very slow speed which eats the rotors excess energy very quickly.... making for a short landing.... If you do decide to try changing the way you land, Lofty, make sure you ask an instructor to keep an eye on you or go with you, don't just try it out of the blue, in case all goes pare shaped   My point in my comments that you mention, all stem from when and how I learned to fly a gyro... I have never flown in a euro machine, so although my comments might sound anti tub.... they are not (always  )  I just think that a lot of skill has been lost in the creation of the 'titanic revolution' ..... the manufacturers themselves don't always know really how to fly what they build and like Índian Whispers' those that build without actually having a good grasp of how a good gyro flies/what it needs is often copied by the next clone maker who thinks he knows better.... then they get copied by someone else who doesn't even fly yet.... so the basics have been well and truly forgottenThis is proved time after time by new gyro 'imagineers' creating gyros more and more heavy in and effort to get more 'junk' and 'modern conveniences' on their machine than the last guy.... when those who actually fly the older lighter gyros can only see the weight as a big disadvantage in all but cross country comfort.... I often wish that the euro tub 'anti stick frame' brigade could experience an well built, well sorted stick gyro.... they would definitely enjoy the light weight and agility    
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| Author: | MadMuz [ Sat Jan 24, 2015 12:28 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Landing Speeds / Profiles |
Just to dribble on a bit more, coz I am in the muuuuuude  What worries me about your (and most 'colossus' class gyros) these days Lofty..... and I am not picking on you at all mate.... you are flying very well.... but you are flying a gyro as a FW..... you could have saved yourself about $50,000 and just bought a 150 or 152 if you want to fly that way  see, I worry that tub flyers, who all seem to be so sure the  914 or 912 will/can never stop..... will roll their machine up, when the impossible/inevitable happens and they have to do a full on engine out in a place that isn't an airport..... How you, Lofty, as well as many factory machines land, you nedd to have your 200 yards to run without obsticals like trees before touching down.... exactly the same as you would in a fixed wing.... you have read above how Stan chooses to land, everyone has seen my video'd engine out, where I aim for the ground.... I was hanging in my seatbelt looking at the ground getting closer.... and I still didn't overspeed... I never looked at the asi, but I just know my eyes were like dinner plates, it was very, very quiet ..... but I wasn't going real fast.... in fact, for looking at the ground, it wasn't fast at all..... So, think about this...... if you need to land with no engine in a small space where you haven't got 200 yards + of run along area? What will you do? Roll a perfectly good machine I guess?   If I have an engine out, I look between my ankles for my LZ.... when I locate it, I am quite happy to ease the nose down and just aim for it..... the rotor RPM will be high (I never had a rotor tach) but they will be wizzing hard...... when you feel like flaring, wait a jiffy, then flare and hold..... unless you flares way too high, the energy in the rotors will lower you into ground affect which will slow you further.... you have to stop the machine drifting left or right as well as forward or back, unless you need to position yourself....So it is just my opinion, you need to ask an instructor or others their opinions and think about learning to spot land without power as your normal landing, so you don't get a shock and a bingle if the almighty Rotax ever does stop..... If I were you, I would start by trying to aim the nose at the ground.... but at 1000' + just to see what it looks like.... I would suggest going to 1200' agl slowing to a near vertical descent, then ease the nose forward.... a bit more, a bit more.... until you are going down as steep as you dare (but don't do anything the manual says not to), then at 700' or so, initiate a flare and watch what the rotors do (speed) and what happens to your vertical speed how the rotors speed up, then as you flare they slow, but you hang (hover ) for an instant, then the rotors settle into a VD speed and your vertical descent establishes..... I know if I were at 500' over the piano keys of a runway into a 10 KT wind, I would happily slow to VD then carefully nose over and land on or before the keys.... I am sure Stan could also... I think every gyro pilot needs to learn how to land in a confined space without a run along the ground..... but again, I urge you, Lofty, or anyone else reading this to try any of these things only with an instructors input not just go and try to change your landing style in one go next time you fly..... And what you have to remember is, if you are in a situation where you are descending like this and at the last minute you decide to flare slowly, you will prolly need to skim the ground (run in) for 400 yards to get rid of the rotor energy.... you have to learn that in a steep descent, you need a big flare to get rid of the energy into slowing the descent, very quickly, without forward speed..... hopefully you can find an instructor who can guide you.... and in any case, I think you should start by doing more engine idling landings, just in case of a flame out, you will be more used to the steep glide I liken gyro landing how a lot of heavy factory machines like someone parking a medium size sedan..... you drive up to the (parallel park) and need to slow down, steer in (or go past and reverse in) .... but all very normal and slow..... whereas mime and Stans way, is like zooming up to the park from another direction and pulling the handbrake and sliding sideways into the park (between cars) In my video, look at the nose down attitude, but lack of descent Look at the hang time on the flare and how soft the landing is? .... You have to learn to use the force (of the rotors) young Loft-Walker  (just try and find someone to guide you |
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| Author: | Hellified [ Sat Jan 24, 2015 6:21 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Landing Speeds / Profiles |
Muz- Very correct and descriptive posts. Many gyros just simply land WAY too fast. The best thing that ever happened to my gyro experiences was my first real engine out with only 5 hours of flying under my belt....0 hours of instruction. I was flying over a growing soybean field and just had to land slow. Thankfully I had already practiced engine out landings over my dads farm runway and knew I could land with almost 0 ground roll. My tracks were right at one foot ground roll in the soybeans. Had I been touching down at 20 mph..or God forbid 30 mph, I would have balled it up and probably been hurt. That taught me to really practice for engine outs a lot, and that's why I always come in steep, engine idling, nice hard flare and getting the gyro slowed way down. Little did I know I had 17 more real forced landings in gyros ahead of me. Each turned out the same, nothing bent or scratched. Greg Gremminger lands like this all the time in his Magni...even with a big passenger as himself. You need to know how to land these things slowly....not over a runway...but for when a real engine out finds you with no runway. I remember a lesson dad taught me in flying his Cessna and Piper Cherokee. He had a 1600 foot grass runway and we flew out of it all the time. Once in awhile various friends of dad would want to land on dads runway. Some just could not land on such a short runway as they had only flown from large commercial runways. They would comment on what a short runway....and dad would ask them what they would do if they had an engine out. |
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| Author: | Mike.Hunt [ Sun Jan 25, 2015 11:33 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Landing Speeds / Profiles |
Hellified wrote: Muz- Very correct and descriptive posts. . not bad for a knowitall from upside-down land. ha! 
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